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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Question for the concrete experts

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Stan in Oly, WA

09-25-2007 14:43:31




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What is the truth about concrete "wicking"? I know the term is often used inaccurately to describe capillary action through hairline (or smaller) cracks, which I believe actually happens. The way I hear the word "wicking" used most of the time, however, is by people who usually don't know what they're talking about. Wicking, whether or not it exists in concrete, is one of those words that seem to fascinate the kind of person who knows one technical term in each area of construction, and uses it at every opportunity. That has the effect of reducing my confidence in the existence of what may be an actual phenomenon. I mean, I know wicking exists in paper towels---but concrete?

Stan

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Stan in Oly, WA

09-27-2007 07:00:01




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
Thanks, everyone. Excellent, informative, useful information.



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Earl - IL

09-27-2007 12:36:19




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-27-2007 07:00:01  
Stan, This is off the subject a little, but this product is being used here in central Illinois to keep concrete from sweating due to temp. changes. P2000 Insulation Systems. www.p2insulation.com. Earl



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soundguy

09-26-2007 10:37:27




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
There are plenty of paint on sealers for concrete available.. as well as vapor barier materilas like plastic sheeting.. etc..

Soundguy



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T_Bone

09-25-2007 22:34:23




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
Hi Stan,

One concrete water proffing method is adding 1/4tsp of liquid dish soap per cubic foot of mix.

What this does is break down the surface tension of the agrate grains thus a tigher bond is formed as the cement curies thus will be pretty much leak free, so it says in the "old" methods of laying concrete according to gold miners. I'll find out this winter when I pour my cisterns without a vapor barrier.

This was a trick learned from the gold miners as the gold flakes would have a coating of nautal oils thus causing the gold to float out of the pan/sluice box and be loast in the tailings pile. Adding the dish soap resolved this problem.

There also a refference to adding liquid soap in one of my Popular Mechanics books under, Water proffing concrete for swimming pools. They recomend adding Ivory soap made into a liquid at a rate of 1qt soap/cubic foot cement? If it's improtant I'll go back a reread the text for the correct mix ratio. I assume Ivory soap doesn't break down to a liquid state when comparred to using a commerical made liquid dish soap.

T_Bone

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Kansas Cockshutt

09-27-2007 11:25:51




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to T_Bone, 09-25-2007 22:34:23  
T_Bone- with all due respect I have read your posts for a long time in these forums and know you are a knowlgeable person-

And I am not going to say what you have stated is wrong by any means; Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here but-

but as far as I have been trained adding soap or any other "foaming" agent actually entrains air into the concrete- lots of microscopic "bubbles" in the dried mud that results in a weaker mix but a mix that is more resistant to freeze/thaw cycles because the "bubbles" allow for the concrete to expand and contract with out cracking and spalling off.

I do have an ACI certification and have "been there done that" so I want to offer my two cents on adding soap.

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T_Bone

09-27-2007 15:16:04




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Kansas Cockshutt, 09-27-2007 11:25:51  
Hi KC,

OK, see if this helps:

Standard air weighs .0075lbs/cft

Water = 65.5lbs/cft

cement/sand/rock =150lbs/cft

Virberation of the "mix" should cause all the air to rise to the surface and NOT be trapped in the mix???

Would it not be the same as water in diesel? Water at 8.33lbs/gal and No2D at 7.0lbs/gal is why No2D will float on top of water. Water weighs more and sinks below No2D.

Logical?

Or am I missing something? I've never read anything of the results from a concrete accredited source, so maybe I'm blowing smoke on this one. I'm open to suggestions!

T_Bone

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Kansas Cockshutt

09-28-2007 21:37:35




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to T_Bone, 09-27-2007 15:16:04  
E-mail me T-bone; this is from the "book" not my own words:

What is an air-entraining admixture?
It is an admixture that causes the development of a system of microscopic air bubbles in cement paste during mixing, usually to increase its resistance to freezing and thawing and to improve workability (ACI 212.3R)

Air is entrained in concrete to increase its resistance to disintegration when exposed to cycles of freezing and thawing in a critically saturated condition and to minimize the scaling that results from applications of chemicals for ice removal. Entrained air bubbles of diameters arger then 3 nanometer provide resistance to damage caused by freezing and thawing. Bubbles should be distributed in the cement paste at a spacing not greater that .2mm, achieved by the use of air-entraining admixtures or air-entraining hydraulic cement. These closely spaced air bubbles provide relief from the pressure built up by the freezing of water in the capillary cavities in the cement paste and thus minimize damage tot he hardened paste.

Does over vibration cause segregation and loss of air content?
Normal density concretes that are well-proportioned and have adequate consistency are not readily susceptible to segregation resulting from over vibration (ACI 309) A mixture with excess mortar is prone to segregation when over-vibrated, however. A well proportioned mixture with the proper air-void system will lose some air during vibration. The system will still provide satisfactory resistance to freezing and thatwing because the loss of air will be from large size bubbles and ut will not increase the bubble-spacing factor beyond acceptable limits.

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paul

09-25-2007 20:24:25




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
Yup. Grain bin floors without a vapor barrior will wick moisture into the grain if you don't have a false floor.

--->Paul



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Billy NY

09-25-2007 17:22:12




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
Concrete does have capillaries, and a good example of this is older bridge deck designs, whereas the deformed metal bars(rebar) placed in the concrete slabs, were not coated with epoxy, stainless steel, or negatively charged, ( there was actually a design that involved something along those lines to mitigate corrosion, I forget the specifics on how it functioned).

The rebar years ago was often placed too close to the surface and the salt used in the winters would be absorbed into the concrete, react with the unprotected steel and corrode. The rebar would corrode and expand like 6 times it's diameter and spall the concrete apart. It was a big problem in NY years ago. The expansion properties of rusting steel is amazing, the building I was working on today is 1940's era masonry, with heavy steel lintels spanning the piers that create the old storefront, the lintels look like someone went along with a big pry bar, some are rippled, deformed, all due to the rust flakes putting pressure, point loaded and noticeably expanded small humps in the steel flange that was once straight. Poor design, the soldier course of brick above and the steel creates a joint, one that was never sealed or caulked, 60 years later, it's a mess and will eventually require some serious remdial work to correct.

Concrete finish products like Lapidolith and Euclid chemical company are used for many applications, I think they manufacture sealers as well, I used to review quite a bit of contractor submissions of concrete accessories, for job approval or rejection, according to project specifications. Most of these and other products require the concrete to have cured the full 28 days prior to applying, something to remember.

Pharmaceutical manufacturing facilities are one example where I would think that would have stringent finish requirements for concrete slabs, and or industrial type flooring like epoxy bonded to concrete, due to the nature of what they do in these buildings.

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Gerald J.

09-25-2007 15:10:41




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 Re: Question for the concrete experts in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 09-25-2007 14:43:31  
Yup wicking in solid concrete, not just along the cracks. Why basement walls need a waterproofing coating on the outside of tar. Why not having a plastic sheet under a floor will show up wet spots under stuff.

Gerald J.



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