OT: GM strike, anybody here work for GM

All I've seen or heard of union tactics are sugar in the diesel/gas tanks and shovel-handle-beating "recruiting" efforts. That's nothing but plain old extortion to me. Nothing much different than terrorist extremist tactics except maybe the beheadings... Why have the mafia and unions always been so tightly intertwined?? Maybe because they use the same "persuasion tactics"... I don't know...

It's no wonder so many jobs are flooding to other areas of the world where there are lines and lines of people that would love to have a decent job. Who ever heard of getting paid for years for not working like some of those unions guys get??

I would love for our economy to keep the wealth at home - but wishes and cold, hard, economics are two different things.

I drive a Ford pickup and a Chevy Suburban and two 1997 Mercury Cougars because I don't want to support Japanese automakers, but a late 90's vehicle is also about as new a vehicle as I'll buy (even though I could easily afford a brand new one), because I'm not going to subsidize the UAW's short-sighted, heavy-handed, me-first-and-screw-everyone-else-company-included attitude...

Howard

Also, these unions don't seem to care, at all, what their whining does to other people. The UAW did John Deere Co. a lot of damage back in the 80s, causing a parts strike. At the time, the UAW stated it wanted to put on a show - to keep GM in line. Real nice. The place I worked for, a John Deere Farm and Industrial dealership, almost went under since we couldn't get new parts for almost half a year. A few years later, a union rep came to our shop and tried to get a foothold. My boss - a self-made, ex-chicken farmer/businessman - told the guy that . . . if his employees opted to become union workers - he'd close down the businsess. Good for him - I was behind his decision 100%.

Seems you consider supporting the economy paying absolutely rediculous prices for cars and trucks to support overpaid workers. If you have a strong desire to spread your own "wealth" - well go ahead - but nobody should be forced to do it.

My reasoning works a little different than your's. First - I haven't bought a new car or truck since 1972 - and probably never will. The prices are greatly inflated due to the spoiled autoworkers - and government overlegislation for EPA regs and safety. I have a few cars made in 1981 and 1991 that get up to 50 MPG and that's better than anything new on the market. And, for trucks - it's not much different. My 82 Chevy K10 gets up to 24 MPG, and my 92 Dodge W250 gets up to 21 MPG and has all the power - and reliability I'll ever need or want. By the way - what exactly is "U.S." stuff? My 92 Dodge is made in Mexico, and my 94 Ford F250 is made in Canada. Not sure where my Chevy's were made. I do know my wife's two Subarus were both made in the U.S. Second - in regard to Japan - if it wasn't for their competition, the U.S. stuff might still be the same crap that was being turned out in the mid 70s. The incredible reliabilty of the Japanese cars and trucks along with their work-ethic provided a big wake-up call to the U.S. auto industry. I've got several retired Detroit auto engineers in my family, and heard many of the closed-door details and stories - especially with Ford - about trying to come up with a product that could even come close to Toyota and Datsun in reliablitly and quality. It's what started the Ford "Robustness" program back in early 70s. Also remember quite well GM and Ford trying to copy Japanese assembly-line techniques. I will say though, that our U.S. dollars and military support is what enabled post-war Japan to focus on auto engineering while not having to pay for a military - like we do. Three - your comments that make it sound as though, buying a Japanese car is sending money overseas MORE than if buying an American brand car? Well, I'm not how you'd sort that all out. How many overseas holdings does Bill Ford have?
How many auto production plants does Ford and GM have? They are now global companies, not U.S. companies. Ford uses more Chinese parts than Honda or Toyota does - and Toyota uses more U.S. built components than Ford. And, take your U.S. purchase. OK, you pay a huge price - much of which goes to a super-inflated paycheck and benefit package for a relatively unskilled worker. What then does he/she do with all that money? Spend it all on U.S. built products? I doubt it. Japan has us to thank for paying to rebuild it after WWII and protect it as it got better at making stuff. We, in turn, have Japan to thank for lots of engineering innovation. Early on - the U.S. "fix" to good Japan stuff versus bad-quality U.S. stuff was added import duties. This made it more cost-effective for Japanese companies to either build stuff here - or cheat the laws for awhile (like with the Subaru BRAT). So, here they are - and many U.S. resident workers are benefitting from it in many ways.

I can't find a logical reason to agree with you.

I'm not for the union either, but I would rather have the money stay here than send it overseas, it is simple economics.

I can't help it, I grew up with American iron and to me the Japanese stuff is junk.

Yes, I once bought a brand new 85 Toyota Cressida for my wife. It was the most unreliable car I've ever had, was smoking like crazy at 60K and sold it soon after and lost a lot of money on it. I've got 5 American cars with very good reliabilty ranging from 1977 to 2003 and plan on keeping all of them a long time.

I was a Chevy mechanic when the GM junkers started flying around 1973. You want to talk about crap? They were making it. If you want isolated, or specific vehicle stories - I could tell you hundreds - about failed plastic-coated timing gears, bad Parkerization on camshafts, worn out valve guides at 60K miles, bad transmissions, etc. Some of that was due to the race to meet new EPA standards - so it's not all the auto-companies fault - but again, much is. Hey, the Olds 350 diesel was great Detroit engineering? The aluminum cylinder-wall Chevy Vega? Same with Chrysler's Lean Burn engine or Cadillac's 4-6-8 montrosity.

I grew up with American iron - loved it 50 years ago and still do. I've got a 1918 Ford Model T, two Ford Model As, two 49 Ford pickups, a 1965 Chevelle SS, a 1960 Corvair, 1964 Riviera, eighteen Chevrolet diesel trucks, two almost modern Ford diesel trucks (85 and 94), a 69 W200 Power Wagon and a 92 W250 Dodge Cummins - and more - so - I don't exactly shy away from U.S. products. Over a hundred tractors too - mostly U.S. built with a few British, here and there. Our country has a proud heritage of being resourceful - but also a history of lagging behind and getting lazy until pushed into a corner. It happened with WWII - we were totally unprepared - but got up to speed pretty quick with some help from the French. Same with the auto industry in mid-70s. They got fat and lazy and were making some of the worst crap ever - and Jap-competition made them wake up. Right now - much of this country has its collective eyes closed to what happening around us. That applies to protecting our freedom as well as our culture,industry, and environment. That being said, I don't see the connection where overspending on American products with inflated prices has anything to do with supporting, or not supporting our heritage as Americans. There is nothing wrong, nor is there anything un-American about being careful with money and getting the best bang for your buck.

Their quality , while good, is not as high as they would have you believe.

The only thing I"m pointing out is that you are supporting the Japanese economy more than America"s economy and if you can"t see that you need to take an economics course.

In regard to Jap stuff being made out of gold - no, I've never felt that way. In fact, back late 50s, early 60s any merchandise made in Japan used to be generally considered cheap-junk - just as the Chinese stuff is now. But, they made a name for themselves with their cars. For every bad Jap-car story you've got to tell, I could tell you many more good ones, along with U.S. car disaster stories - mostly based on first-hand experience as a mechanic doing warranty work. All the companies will hide problems when possible. Corporations are not altruistic - they exist to maximize profits. That's goes for Japan and the U.S. I'd have a lot more respect for U.S. car companies if they took a stand against the unions, made their operations more cost-efficient, and gave U.S. consumers a better deal for their buck. They haven't done it, since it's been more cost-effective, and easier for the short term, to constantly give-in. Spending, on the average, $80 per hour for unskilled workers is absolutely ludicrous. And, by buying a U.S. car - you support the inefficiency of these U.S. companies. If one of them took such a stand, and paid employees a good wage based on realistic standards and "supply and demand", I'd be behind them 100%.

I am not a UAW nor union employee, but I find this gentleman fascinating. I think it is worth listening to and may give you a perspective that maybe you didn't have before albeit positive or negative.

This is the only media outlet that Mr. Gettelfinger will allow interviews. I think you will see why.

JU

• WJR Radio

We're all in some form of labor Union, some are just larger than others with better working conditions.

In the 80's George Sr was trying to get Unions banned on gov't contracts. To prove his point, a committee was formed for a study of the topic. The Dept of Labor was assigned this task.

What was found in the study, reviewing past contracts of both Union and non-union Federal contracts was:

Union workers preformed there work 30% faster than non-union and that was accredited too the superior training of Union workers vs non-union workers.

There was consdierable less start up problems with Union contractors vs non-union contractors.

Non-union contractors didn't save the gov't any money in fact in most cases, non-union contracts were considerable higer than Union contracts.

George Sr was not a happy camper after the findings were published.

T_Bone

Teamsters Local 17 for 25 years (Retired)

I've worked alone since 1991 - i.e. no union of any sort. My wife has been the asst. director of a water-powered millsite museum for 15 years - and they have eight employees with NO commonality - i.e. they are not joined together with anything but the work they are required (and want) to do. No meetings in dark rooms complaining about pay. My wife, et. al. figure if anyone there doesn't like it, they are free to leave and work elsewhere.

In regard to your comments about union workers being better then their non-union counterparts? Maybe somewhere, but I certainly haven't seen it. I HAVE met a few people that were excellent workers in SPITE of the Union, not because of it. I worked as an electrician - as an IBEW member and as a private contractor. I worked as a truck driver for an independent garbage hauler - and as a Teamster. I worked as a teacher for a short time around many members of the teachers' union (which I never joined). Anywhere I worked - as soon as I got around Union mentality workers - I had to slow down and do less.

In regard to the studies you cite - gee wiz - who conducted them, union workers?

You just helped confirm why Unions were formed in the first place with your example of your wife/your thoughts of, take it or leave it attitude.

Go back and read the history of labor 200yrs ago, heII even 100yrs ago, and see why worker were required to work 7days a week for a low wage, no benefits, (health ins, retirement, safe working enviroment) and if the workers complained, then they were dismissed.

If you/your wife don"t think her employees discuss the above problems, you do have your blind eye to the subjects.

Good work habbits are bread into people and learned. There"s many workers who just don"t preform well in any enviroment wheather it"s Union or non-union. That is just a fact of life.

Unions are just like any other organzation, you get back what you put in to it. If you don"t make a effort in being Union, you will most likey feel very little return/reward.

T_Bone

I don't have to go back and read anything - I'm well read, pretty well educated, have lots of skilled work experience - good and bad - and have a good memory.

I am well aware of the good labor unions did - at one time - and for the most-part, that time is past. Presently, they exist to extort money from consumers and taxpayers - directly and indirectly.
If every type of employment in this country had a strong labor union, and a McDonalds worker got paid $60,000 a year - a hamburger would cost $15, and we'd all be back to square-one. A $100,000 annual salary would be worth $50,000. Taxes and prices up all over. Income would have no relationship to skill level, there'd be little incentive for anyone to work, and/or innovate - and then - we could call this place France #2.
Pay is a relative entity - high pay can only exist in a reference frame where someone else gets low pay. In the natural order of life - call it "natural selection" - some do better than others because they are smarter, or stronger, or work harder, etc. Modern labor unions try to level the playing field for their members - and make everyone else pay for it. Don't get me wrong - I don't wish to see low achievers starve - but - they also do not have an inherent right to be supported - at a high level - by others.

There are not too many U.S. citizens that are starving and cannot provide for their children.
There are endless government hand-out programs. I could quit work tomorrow, go on welfare, and get much better medical benefits than I get right now - that I pay every month for.

In regard to bad working conditions - I've only got to look back 25 years - not 50 or 100. I was working in a non-OSHA compliant shop, virtually forced to work seven days a week in highly unsafe conditions, etc. I say "virtually" because nobody had a gun to my head. But, I had four kids to feed and there were few employment opportunities in this area at the time.
I did, however, move to this rural area by my own choice - and had left an area and an union job to move to a nicer area. My idea, my choice, my fault, and my responsibility. I finally moved on, went into business for myself, and have done fine. And hey - I could fire anyone I want, whenever I want - if I had employees, which I don't. I did once and didn't like it.

You mention a time when workers got dismissed if they complained? As far as I'm concerned, that's the way it should be - and - legally - that's the way things are, right now, in the state of New York - unless you are a government or contract worker. New York - legally - is an "at will" state, which means - an employee can quit anytime with no notice or stated reason. And, a boss can fire anyone he/she wants - also without notice or a reason. That's the law and I'm fine with it. It's called free will.

You mention me, or my wife having a blind eye to what people really want at her workplace? I suspect you are a bit clueless to that situation. Most of the people working there do it for free - they volunteer. And, there's a waiting list of people who want to do it. Many are retired and highly skilled people who just happen to love the museum and like working and spending time there. Those that are full-time paid employees - for the most part are only there because they like the place and lifestyle. All have - at the minimum - masters degrees in Museum Studies, and/or History/Anthropology and also - most have years of hands-on working experience - usually with blacksmithing, wood working, mill-wrighting, etc. I'm sure, that once in awhile someone works there that is disgruntled, feels underpaid, and would love a union to come in and demand an artificial wage. And, if that ever happened - the Museum Board would shut the place down. My wife could leave, anytime, and get a job elsewhere at twice or three times the pay she's getting now. But, she is there by choice - she likes spending her time at an 1800s water-powered saw and grist mill. It's sort of an escape from modern reality - she likes it and has no desire to change anything. Many to most of the people I've met like her - that choose to work as a craftsman - or at a living history museum - have different priorities than many other types of folk. No union needed - to ruin the place.

You say good work habits are "breadinto people" - so, I'll ask - where did these good habits start? You seem to be presenting a "chicken or the egg" argument.

You also state "Unions are just like any other organization, you get back what you put in to it."
I don't want to be insulting here, but do you really believe - that you get back - whatever you put into any organization? I guess you need to give your working definition for the word - since I don't agree, at all.

I didn't think you'd have to ask!

100% Union all the way.

Sheet Metal Workers Local No9. for 33yrs

T_Bone

I have lost wages since 2000 and don't make squat compared to the overpriced union. GM has been going nuts on pricing their parts really high and keeps increasing them while getting them from China. I think they were trying to make up what they lost on car sales in parts profits.

I think this would be a perfect time for GM to tell the union to go pound sand ! They can't keep bleeding the company and expect to even have a job with all the outsourcing to China.

This country needs to keep all the jobs here they can anyway they can. I don't have anything good to say about the greedy stock holders and corperate big wigs either. If they can build something in USA with parts from USA and sell it so people can afford it, pay employees at all levels average wages,pay all their bills and at the end of the day break even and maybe have some left to invest in new equipment that's all they need. No need for extra millions to be bleed off to the Forbes Billionaire club.

I'm sure that the corporate big wigs and stock holders are getting the extra income from selling China parts at the same prices as the previous US and Canada made ones.

GM wants to close plants to become more competitive. Why wouldnt GM want to outsource cleaning? What is a jobs bank? Gm is actually in business to make money, hard to believe but its true. Stockholders want a good return on their investment. Dividends + stock price increase. Is Delphi on strike too? I would think that compromising on all the issues and meeting each other 1/2way would be the way to start off.

But remember that it takes 2 to sign a contract and if the GM management was dumb enough to give everyone a silver platter loaded with goodies (I am talking about all GM employees here, Hourly, salary, execs) then GM deserves the strike, and to lose money. A close relative of mine works at GM and is WAY overpaid.

Of course, I think that figure is simplifying things a bit. They may have a 65 day supply of the less desireable models, but i wonder how much of a supply they have of their more popular cars?

Not to mention, once the strike ends, it will take some time for the supply to catch back up again.

I spent many a year(25+ years) repairing cars & trucks in a few of their dealerships. I've seen the quality hit rock bottom. The quality is picking up but I think it may be too late as the publics perception of GM quality doesn't exist anymore.
What popular models would GM have anymore? You tell me.