Hand tools, two parts

I read over the last post and all the replies and even spoke my piece. One thing that keeps coming back to bother me is how the recurring theme of warranty keeps popping up.

I'd like to start with broken tools. First off, how many tools actually break under "NORMAL" use? From my experience, very few. Most times a tool like a wrench or socket will not fail unless you push it above what it was intended to do. Yes from time to time you get something with a flaw in it and it will break or bend with little or no force applied. This is something that will happen no matter how good any quality control program is and I'm not disputing that it happens.

If you take a 1/2 drive socket and put it on a 24 breaker bar then slide a 36" pipe over it, you can fully expect that something will give at some point. Either the drive will twist off or the socket will break or the bolt will break. Whatever is the weakest point will be what snaps first. 1/2" drive is limited to about 250 ft lbs of torque under normal operating conditions and uses. Once you exceed this, you shoul be going to a 3/4" drive or larger to maintain the proper use of the tools. You can't expect any tool brand in 1/2" drive to hold when you apply say 400 ft lbs to it (almost double it's standards) many do but that is not the point.

What gets me is when people ---- store or truck replaced my 9/16" box wrench when I put a pipe on it and snapped the end off. Fine and dandy for you but this is adding to the cost the rest of us now have to pay for your fraudulent warranty claim against the mfg. Same goes for someone who grinds a wrench to fit a tight a spot and then it breaks and they return it for a replacement. Sorry but when you willingly destroy a tool you should accept this as part of the cost of doing the job and should not expect me and everyone else to pick up the tab for it.

I destroy a lot of tools from abuse. I'll put a pipe on a wrench. I'll hammer fit a socket or wrench to a fouled nut. I'll put a chrome socket on the impact gun. I'll do whatever it takes to get the job done. When I destroy tools from abuse, I bill them out to the job and if it's my own work, I eat the cost and move on.

I buy tools at auctions and garage sales too. I like saving money just like everyone else and if i can get a $100 tool for $20 you damn well bet that I'll grab it just as fast as anyone else. What you won't see me doing is trying to get Sears or the snappy guy to replace it under warranty. One the same note, if I buy a $100 tool off the shelf or the truck and pay the full $100 for it, it better damn well be made right. If it's not, I fully expect them to replace it with a good one.

I bought a 1/2" Milwaukee angle drill last year at Lowe's. The price was a bit higher than what I could have bought it for at the indsutrial supplier but Lowe's happened to be the only place open on sunday afternoon when I needed it. I got it home only to find out someone had purchased this same drill before, used it and returned it for their money back. While there was nothing wrong with the drill itself, they did loose some of the pieces to the set. Because of the policy at lowe's, they had no choice but to take this kit back and replace the entire thing with a new one. Now we have a drill that gets shipped back to Milwaukee to get cleaned and serviced and can only then be sold as a factory reconditioned at a lower cost. All these added costs and loss of profits have to come from somewhere and that would be all of our pockets.

There is no difference between warranty on tools and anything else you buy. If you take your car and run it into a power pole then tell the insurance company it was a hit and run, this is called insurance fraud. This is no different than you taking a wrench and hooking a pipe to it and then expecting it to be replaced under warranty. It's nothing more than fraud. The same goes for buying something with the intent to use it for the job at hand then returning it to the store when you're done with it. They have places for this, they are called Rental Stores.

Part Two: Quality & Service

I'm sure by now most of you who read this board or my own tool board know that I have been complaining about poor quality products coming from some mfg's. You'll also note that I am just as quick to brag about companies, stores and dealers that give great service and or high quality products.

Recently I put up a post about Danaher Tool Group dropping the ball on both quality and service. This is because I purchased a set of wrenches that were supposed to be top quality high priced Armstrong and they came out of the factory package damaged and totally unacceptable for the price. had these been the $8 Harbor Frieght specials, it would have been a much different story. When you pay for quality and get junk, then it's time to yell about it. After numerous calls to Armstrong and Danaher, I have yet to get any type of solid responce from them as to why this happened and what they are willing to do to make it right. I eneded up having no choice but to take the loss on the shipping and stick Fastenal for the price of the tools themselves. This poor quality from Danaher has now put additional costs on the distribution side of Fastenal driving their costs up as well.

Sears is a big distributer of Danaher prodcuts in the Craftsman line of hand tools. For you old timers who have some of the older Craftsman tools, take a good look at them and compare the quality of these to the new ones. You should see a major difference between them. You would think that with the passing of time and the increase of technology, quality would get better. This is not the case at all. The new craftsman tools have dropped so far in quality that I will not even consider them at all anymore. Look at the Allen brand tools, especially the combo wrenches. These used to be a decent wrench at a lower cost than other brands but now the prices are higher and the quality is worse than some of the super cheap imports.

I was a big fan of Armstrong and own many thousands of dollars worth of thier tools. They HAD a great customer service department but now you get answers like "well then take it back to fastenal" and they hang up on you. They don't even care to hear what the problem is with the product.

Then you have a company like Stanley that runs tool trucks around selling good quality tools like Mac and they turn around and screw the tool truck owners so they go out of business. Now I'm sitting on thousands more dollars in Mac tools that I can't get any service on even though I paid through the nose for it when I bought the tools. Oh, sure, they will replace a $3 socket if I pay for the postage to send it to them and also pay them an additional $10 for their time and return shipping to me for each tool. Let's see, according to the old math, that means I can now give them an additional $7 for a tool that I paid at least double the cost of to start with by buying the service contract up front.

Then along comes a company like Wright that not only sends me a catalog when I requested one via their web site but also had the area sales rep stop by my shop to answer any questions I had. In addition to this, the district manager from corporate also called me to make sure I was happy with the service I received even though I have not yet even had a chance to buy a single tool from them. Now that I have purchased some Wright tools, I made it a point to pick up the phone and call them to tell them that so far I am happy with the both the purchases and the excellent service I got from their dealer. Sure, the dealer is 40 miles from me but I will go out of my way to spend my money there because I get the service to go along with it and also the excellent quality products.

Another line I am not going to discount here is Kobalt. They are sold exclusivley by Lowe's but are also available on-line with very reasonable direct shipping rates to your door. The added plus is that I can use my Lowe's credit card to make on-line purchases helping me to keep my paper work in order. While there are some major differences in the look of the Kobalt tools compared to other brands, you cannot dispute the fact that these are very high quality tools for the very low end prices.

On the other hand, I will not discount Snap-On as being a super quality tool at still reasonable prices. While many people question the cost of a snappy wrench to a C-man wrench, they fail to see the quality differences. Sorry if this offends anyone here but if you have never put a C-man up against a snappy or wright, you really don't know what you are missing. The one thing you're not missing is meat off your knuckles when you use these excellent quality tools.

I've seen a few posts that were critical of the slippery snappy chrome finish. True, I don't care for the chrome ones much myself but did you know they have black satin industrial finish available on most every tool they sell too. BTW, the cost is usually a bit cheaper for these too. Wright also has the black finsih as well. These are just as durable to corrosion protection as the chrome ones. This is just a matter of your flavor and personal wants. If you don't like the thin handle snappy wrenches, Wright has a nice line of very high quality wrenches with a thicker handle design I'm sure you'll be happy with.

No one company is every going to make the best tool for every use, condition and personal like. That's a given and there is no disputing this fact. For anyone to say that you can use C-man or Snappy or Wright or Cornwell as the only tool brand you need is a flat out lie. There are some things that Snappy sells that other companies don't have at all. On the other side of this, Wright has the specialty stuff for industrial needs that snappy does not.

I can't by any strech of the imagination sit here and tell you to buy X brand or Y brand only. You need to choose what is going to fit you and your needs. This goes for anything from trucks to cars to hand tools, power tools, welders, generators, ect. What works for me may not be worth sqaut to you. What works for you may not be worth anything but a paper weight to me.

I try to give my input the best way I can by giving you my thoughts and reality of my experiences with things. Like the post about the air compressors. Sure, I looked over the Salor-Beal machines, they look like an excellent quality machine but I also told the person asking the question that I don't have experience in dealing with the company or the product first hand. I own a Champion, this I will tell you about in detail from what I know personally about it. I almost lost a long term customer over an Ingersol-Rand piece of crap machine and then got snubbed by the company and the dealer on top of it. They screwed me and I'll tell you about it the way it is.

When snappy hired a few crappy dealers in this area, I told people and told snappy directly. The problem was cured and now I am back to buying snappy. Sears had some bad employees who caused a lot of problems for them and it led to getting lawyers involved. Now that Sears has pruged their ranks and got some good people in the store, I'm back to buying at sears again, just not danaher products.

I understand companies can have problems with products and people. That's something that will never change. What makes the difference is how the company as a whole addresses the problems, if at all, that makes the difference.

OK, I'm done ranting now.
Have a great day and please, WORK SAFE!
Mark Kw

Okay, now that I made the rest of you mad .... I have worked on cars and trucks for more than 30 years. Sometimes as a business and sometimes as a hobby. I own tools from a variety of manufacturers and each brand I own is because I prefer that tool in that brand to the other availible brands. Each manufacturer has their strngths and weaknesses. Time is money .If ya don't beleive that just divide what your W-2 said last year by 2,080. That is the number of hours you probably worked last year and it will tell you what you really averaged per hour of your time.I prefer S-K brand sockets for the fit and finish,Armstrong ratchets,Snap-On wrenches and screwdrivers and Starret precision tools. If most of these tools break or need replacement(they all do occasionally), I have to go find a dealer that has one like it and argue about the warranty usually. With Snap-on I don't have that problem. They come to me. That time spent replacing any other tool is time that I could be billing to a customer and I lose that whenever I am doing anything else. If I am giving my time away for free I might as well be doing something I enjoy like having a glass of tea on the porch with the misses. My only objection to Snap-On is the generally snotty attitude of their dealers. After I have invested over 40,000 in their brand they shouldn't act like they are doing me some kind of favor by selling me something. Much less charge me 5 bucks for a new catalogue. The real issue is this : are you concerned with cost or are you concerned with price ? What is the difference you say ? Price is a one time thing. Cost is a life time thing. When you buy a product for a low price you are getting the advantage of not spending as many of your dollars as you do when you buy something with a lower lifetime cost. We all have budgets to live within and its important.But when that low priced tool fails you and keeps you from earning the hourly wage you deserve, how much of a bargain is it then ? Then it becomes the highest priced tool by far. Often the highest initial price offers the lowest life time cost. Especialy when you factor in the value of your time. I have many rebuilt machine tools from the 1930's in my shop at home. I have rebuilt each one of them lovingly and painstakingly in my spare time . I did it as a hobby not considering the value of my time becasue it was done during time that I either couldn't be billing to a customer or didn't want to be working. If any one of them breaks down, I can simply decide not to use it till I am in the mood to repair it. Much like an antique car. My shop is a totally different story. Most of the machinery there is newer and still under warranty. When it breaks down, I expect to have it repaired quickly and efficiently without an arguement. My business depends on it working well to run. I can't afford to have it out of service. On my shop wall there is a sign that reads : " the bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of low price " . Cheap things are seldom good and Good things are seldom cheap. There is usually three factors to consider when buying any piece of tool or equipment: Quality,Warranty Service and Low Price. You can have any two of the three, but not all three. If you don't see the merits of quality , value and service,we are all in the wrong business. If our customers didn't they would all be driving Korean cars and Yugoslavian tractors and throwing them away when they failed like they do a bic lighter. One final thought : There are a few things we hold dear in this life The tools of the trade and the sweet little wife If you don't ask to borrow my tools I won't ask to borrow your wife !!

What you need to realize is that I run a service business. I work on all sorts of equipment and machinery, not one brand or only a select few items. For me to carry every special tool for every possible job I can walk into, I would have to be driving a freight train not a service truck. Secondly, if I had the millions of dollars to invest in special tools that I may never need, I would not be out there busting my @$$ working for a living let alone cranking wrenches.

In my business, you can't waste time waiting for a special tool. You try to carry everything you can to do the most amount of work in the fastest possible time. There are many things that determin the time used on a job. If it means spending 3 hours removing a stuck rusted bolt or breaking one or two wrenches doing it in 10 minutes, then you better be beating the wrench on with a hammer and hooking a pipe on it. This is the service the companies expect and they will pay the price for it.

Companies don't call me in to change oil in a gear box, they call me in to either repair or replace the gear box in the shortest amount of time because it's now costing them losses in down time that far exceed what it costs them to pay me to get it done fast.

The industrial world depends upon running machines to make money. Every minute a machine is not running it is costing the company money. If down time is rated at say $10000 per hour, they don't care if I bill them $6000 for that hour as long as the machine is back running again because they are still saving $4000 per hour.

Bottom line is what businesses look at, not the reasons behind the costs, just the costs. Using the above example. They call someone in to fix the same machine and it takes 6 hours but he did not break any tools and bill for them. On the other hand, they call someone like me in who breaks $500 in tools and gets it running in 1 hour. Using the same billing costs, let's say we both charge $100 per hour service rate and used $300 in materials to do the repair.

Service guy one billed $600 for time and $300 for parts, total $900.

I charged $100 for time, $300 for parts and $500 for tools, total $900.

Same price either way is it not? Now, lets look at it the way the company does. The first guy took 6 hour costing the company $60,000 in losses for down time. I took one hour costing the company $10,000 in down time. When the analists look at the end result, guy number one's repair costs the company $60,900. My repair cost the company $10,900 or $50,000 less. All they see is the $50,000 in savings, not the $500 charge for broken tools.

You have to understand that this is not the same as working on someone's car. The owner of the car may be loosing convenience but not money while the car is down. When a machine goes down, it's costing the company money not convenience.

The same goes for someone like an owner operator of a semi-truck. He's only making money when the wheels are rolling, not while he's sitting at the garage or along side the road. He'll pay the extra money for the service call or head of the line at the garage because it'll actually be saving him money when he delivers the load on time.

This was not the point of my post at all but I hope this clears things up a bit. My point was not about buying insurance either. If you buy "insurance" you are paying for a service that you should use if needed. No argument from me on that. All I am saying is that when you buy a tool, you are paying not for an insurance policy, you are paying for a convenience and a certain level of service. The convenience and service you pay for has nothing to do with the way you use the tool, it has to do with what is fair. You pay for snappy, you get at your door service. If you have a good dealer, you get service that goes far beyond that too. You are not paying for an insurance policy to cover your mis-use of the tool.

I don't understand how anyone could reason in any fashion that "satisfaction" means using something in a manner in which it was not intended. Grinding down a wrench is no different to me than jamming a hot dog into your CD ROM drive and saying that you are not "satisfied" with it working properly. What makes a wrench any different than a computer part or dish washer or an ink pen?

Yes, Sears does have a "satisfaction guarantee" but abuse of this does nothing but add to the cost the rest of us have to pay. The one about the 35 year old mattress really gets me. If you can use something like that for that long you should be ashamed of yourself for even attempting this at all. It's a different story if this matress was 35 days old and started falling apart, then it's more than reasonable to get what you pay for and be satisfied with it. What I'm saying is when you don't pay for something, don't complain about it.

While the actual costs of exchanging tools may not seem like that much money to a company like Sears, just remember that each and every one of us is paying that cost 10 times over down the line somewhere. When you get that 25 cent tool at the yard sale and take it back to Sears for a new one, you're not screwing Sears, you're screwing me and everyone else who shops at Sears because we are covering the costs of your outright fraud.

I know that statement is going to offend some people but guess what, I don't care because it offends me when someone like you screws me.

I'm all for the fact if you buy a tool new and it doesn't work properly or does not fit your hand or whatever, take it back for a refund or replacement. That's fine with me but don't take it home, destroy it from abuse then return it, that's fraud not "satisfaction".

Get a life!

• Toolhub

Below is the link to Wright Tool's web site. They have a dealer locator on there but it's best to call them and ask because some are not listed in the on-line locator yet.

Ah, but when I pay for full coverage insurance so I can be protected when I run into a power pole it is no longer fraud at all. It's part of the contract negotiated between me and the insurance company. That's the point. If I select a tool for purchase because it comes with a lifetime unconditional warranty, it's fair game for me to use that warranty. After all, I purchased it.

"...I will not discount Snap-On as being a super quality tool at still reasonable prices."

At a reasonable price? We must have far different definitions of reasonable. Their camber gauge is over $900 last time I priced it. I can buy the identical gauge from companies like Racers Wholesale for less then $100 dollars. Many Snap-On air tools are made by the Viking division of Black&Decker, but you don't pay a B&D price for the Snap-On labeled version of their tool.

Nor are Snap-On tools inherently high quality, though I wish they were. Many of their extremely expensive electric tools are the exact same pacific rim junk ones sold by the likes of Harbor Freight (peel the Snap-On label and look at what it covers).

Having busted many a knuckle as a direct result of a Snap-On tool failing in normal use (exploding ratchets are my personal favorite), I strongly disagree with the notion that I'll never loose meat from using a Snap-On.

"...but did you know they have black satin industrial finish available on most every tool they sell too."

Yes, but the Air Force does not buy them with that finish. And you'll almost never see it on a route truck. Those usually have to be specially ordered. But it is a valid alternative.

Snap-On does have the best screwdrivers I've ever used. Too expensive for me to buy, but boy are then nice.

As for what the Airforce buys, that's a whole different story. These are not the same snappy tools you or I can buy off the truck. They are made to US Government standards which are often times lower than what you will get as standard stock items and this goes for most all companies with govt contracts.

I've had my share of snappy stuff break too just like all the other brands but not that many that failed right out of the box. Ratchets wear out over time and use so there is going to come a point when they will eventually give out even under minimal loading and the same could be said for any tool.

As for the reasonable price, this is compared with other brands of like quality (at least those that were of like quality) IE: armstrong, mac, matco, williams, ect. I'm talking basic tools here, wrenches, sockets, ect. not specialty items. The base off the truck price of snappy is not that much higher than the prices you'll find on the like items in a store front. Yes, they are a bit more but you get at your door service to go along with the price.

Snappy is also no different than any other tool company running trucks. Take a look in the Cornwell, Matco or Mac catalogs. You'll find much of the same stuff all looking alike and coming from the same mfg. There are things that differ somewhat by contract. One is the gauge I looked at for setting the injectors on my 8.2 detroit. Snappy has the gauge built by Kent-Moore and sells it off the truck for $512. From Kent-Moore the same gauge sells for $415. Then you add $12.50 for shipping and get a total of $427.50 If the gauge is then found to be bad, you pay the return shipping as well. Snappy brings it to your door and if there is problem there is no more extra charges attached to make it right. There is also a difference in the finish applied to the snappy version of this tool that is not available in the Kent-Moore version. Not that this matters for end use but the looks do matter to some people.

I'm not disputing full coverage insurance polices, only when you lie about what happened to get a claim covered that you do not pay for. If you're paying for the coverage, then by all means you should be fully entitled to receive it.

I think you guys are missing my point totally here. I don't know what else I can say to make my point clearer. I don't understand how anyone can say that there is any difference between a warranty on a hand tool and a warranty on a VRC or a blender. What makes anyone think they should get a new car warranty on 20 year old beater they bought from the guy down the street? Sounds stupid but this is what goes on when it comes to tools. Someone buys a broken tool at a yard sale for 50 cents and thinks that they have the right to return it to sears to get a new one for free. Not the case. You buy junk, you get junk. You buy something new and destroy it, you did it, it's not the fault of the item.

Fwiw, the Snap-On hand tools we used in the Air Force were the exact same as what anyone else buys from a route truck. We were on a route in fact.

It's interesting to me your explanation about how heavy industry gladly pays for you to destroy tools for them. Some years ago I worked as a mining equipment mechanic for Quarryman Supplies, a Pennsylvania mining equipment company. Customers screamed bloody murder over the mileage charges billed to them for field service work. I could imagine the screaming they'd have done if any of us ever tried to stick the cost of a misused tool on their bill. Never did we bill them for tools we broke as mechanics. In fact, I've never heard of any shop doing that or allowing it. Always the mechanic is expected to provide his own tools of the trade, and attend to them himself.

Personally, I'd have quite a moral problem with doing what you do, billing a customer for your folly in abusing tools. The only way I could ever see justifying that is if I discussed the specifics of it with the customer, and it was agreed upon that the customer would pay me for not having the right tool for the job. "What makes anyone think they should get a new car warranty on 20 year old beater they bought from the guy down the street?"

The fact that they paid for a new car warranty on that 20 year old beater. You can buy them you know. Same with tools. If I pay the premium for a tool with a lifetime unconditional warranty, I'm entitled to use what was paid for. I can chose not to use it, but I'm certainly not prohibited from using the warranty that was paid for.

Manufacturers have a choice. They can either build high-quality high-dollar tools that don't need a strong warranty (Snap-On) or they can build mediocre-quality mid-dollar tools (Craftsman) that do need a strong warranty. This gives the consumer choice.

Further, your point about breaking a tool and returning it being fraudulent is disingenuous. Your own words, "When I destroy tools from abuse, I bill them out to the job�" give you away. If I caught you doing that on a job I hired you for, you would be working for somebody else!

I'll start with this comment from you {"your point about breaking a tool and returning it being fraudulent is disingenuous"}. First off, if the tool breaks under normal use or wears out before it should be expected to, then I have no problem of making a claim to have it replaced because it did not give the service expected from it. My point is when you hook a pipe on a wrench and knowingly break it from pure abuse, then you should not make a warranty claim because the wrench only failed because of your improper usage of it. Let's look at this another way. You buy an air nail gun that is supposed to drive at least 100,000 nails before it needs a rebuild. You use it for two days, drive 4000 nails with it and it stops working. By rights you should make a warranty claim on it. If on the other hand you throw it off a fourty foot high roof and it breaks, sorry but that's your problem not the tool or the company who built it.

Next: {Your own words, "When I destroy tools from abuse, I bill them out to the job�" give you away. If I caught you doing that on a job I hired you for, you would be working for somebody else!}

I work on heavy mining and industrial equipment. When a machine goes down in the mines, it may be costing the owner $1500 per hour or more. When a machine goes down in a plant, the company may be loosing $1500 per minute. These places want the machine fixed yesterday, not tomorrow. They don't care if I beat a $200 socket to death and bill them for it, they want the machine running at all costs. If they were worried about buying me replacement tools broken from abuse while working on their equipment, they would not be paying me what they do to get the machine fixed in the first place. This is a given in this business no matter who the service provider is, if it means them destroying a tool to get the job done, it gets billed to the job no matter what the cost of it is. You can't expect me or anyone else to work for free or at a loss just because you did not plan on down time. The signs in my shop and on my truck read clearly, "Poor planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part." If you're in the game you better be willing to play, win or loose.

{They can either build high-quality high-dollar tools that don't need a strong warranty (Snap-On)}

News to me! I consider Snap-On to have a great warranty. If it fails to provide service as intended for use, it is replaced free of charge. You heat it with the torch or cut the handle off it, you did it, the tool did not fail to work. I would hope that even Sears would disclaim a tool that has been willfully destroyed as well. It's only fair business.

All I am asking is that you put the shoe on the other foot for a while and look at things from the oposite direction. How about answering these questions for me:

1- If you buy a new car, bring it home, drain the oil from the engine and then run it till it was destroyed, would you expect the company/dealer to give you a new engine at no charge?

2- You buy a house and start a fire in the living room and let the place burn to the ground. Should you then get a new house because you lit it on fire?

3- You buy a new TV set, take it home and beat it into pieces with an axe. Should you then be able to return it to the store and demand a new one because this one broke?

See, there is no difference wether you're talking about a wrench or a VCR or an automobile. Yes, they should provide service for the life and use of the item but you must draw a solid line between "use" and "abuse". Abuse not matter what the product should immediately void any warranty or liability claim no matter what the cause.