Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Any Volt meter Repair men.

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Dave F.

09-17-2007 21:08:41




Report to Moderator

In a previous post.I posted about an Sun model 20 VAT (volt amp tester) used for testing batterys & generators in tractors, cars, trucks, well the one I have has a bad volt meter. Well I carefully took the meter apart. In side I found a coil would around an ceramic spool. with fine hair like cotton cover wire coated with wax. I asume this to be an inductor? any way it tested open with an ohm meter. any body famillar with meters where could I find such coil/inductor could't find any numbers on the coil for any values in henrys. Sorry about the long post. Any help will be greatly appreiated Thanks Dave F.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Dave F.

09-19-2007 09:46:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
Gerald, You lost me on the multiplier resistors? are the the ones on the selector switch to switch between volt ranges? if so I could find out the values they apear to be good. and Thanks again Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

09-19-2007 15:32:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-19-2007 09:46:07  
Yes, I'm figuring on them being 1900 ohms for 2 volts and 15,900 for 16 volts or 1900 ohms for 2 volts with an added 14,000 for 16 volts.

Gerald J.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gene-AL

09-18-2007 18:42:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
If it were mine, for my own use, I'd try to unwind that resistance wire out of the wax, measure and add up the resistance of the pieces, then look for a resistor that matches - or find one close and then add series or parallel resistors to make the voltmeter reading match that of a 'good' voltmeter.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Hobo,NC

09-18-2007 16:52:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
I have the same unit, the volt meter is off a volt. Most of the time I use it to test battery/starter draw so use a DVOM instead of trusting the volt meter on the unit. The carbon pile and amp meter work great. I paid $5 bucks for it at a auction.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
tech4

09-18-2007 16:26:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
I agree if it is in series that it is a wire wound precision series meter resistor. It is difficult to say the exact resistance without more information on the movement and other series fixed resistance for each scale. You could try a potentiometer connected as a rheostat and adjust until the meter reads the correct reading. You could then measure the resistance of the pot and replace with a fixed resistor or if the pot is stable - leave it in the circuit. If the series resistance is around 11 ohms then you could measure several 10 ohm resistors and find one a little out of tolerance that read 11 ohms and use that. My guess is that the resistance is going to be closer to 1000 ohms.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

09-18-2007 08:29:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
Its a wire wound resistor used to set the meter movement total resistance to the value specified by the equipment maker (Sun) so the circuits all calibrate correctly. To find a replacement, you will have to measure the movement resistance and determine what the meter movemnt resistance needs to be. You DO NOT measure movement resistance with an ohmmeter unless you like blowing the movement or having to replace its coil which is a real pain of watchmaking. You use a power supply and a large series resistor and set the power supply voltage to get full scale deflection, then you connect a shunt rheostat across the movement and adjust for half scale deflection. Then you disconnect that shunt and measure its resistance with the ohmmeter because it will exactly match that of the meter movement.

There might be a bit of information on the lower face of the meter scale, perhaps fs=1ma and r=100 ohms. Though on a custom meter those may not appear. Its common for a 1 ma meter to have a 100 ohm resistance, a 100 microamp meter to have 1000 ohms, and the movement itself to have something on the order of 90% of that resistance because putting most of the movement resistance in the moving coil gets the best torque for moving the pointer. I had a meter maker once tell me that when I specified 2K for a 100 microamp meter that he'd use more wire in the movement coil to get that greater power. When I later decided I needed 1K and took my test meter apart it had all of that added 1K in the series resistor, which I shipped to him to counter his letter. Never heard from him again.

So for a 1m meter, I'd guess that wire wound resistor is probably in the range of 11 ohms.

Gerald J.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

09-18-2007 11:54:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Gerald J., 09-18-2007 08:29:52  
Interesting way to use parallel resistors gerald. but does work!

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

09-18-2007 13:20:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to soundguy, 09-18-2007 11:54:40  
That's been in text books on meters for most of the 20th century.

Yes it works. By using a 100 volt supply with a 100K series resistor to get 1 ma, the resistance of the meter whether 100 ohms or cut in half by the shunt resistor doesn't change the current much. Difference between 100100 and 100050 ohms, out in the .05% range, and when the meter indication is probably not more accurate than 3% of full scale, that current change is far smaller than insignificant.

The same ratios apply with 100 volts 1 megohm and a 100 microamp meter.

It works best with a relatively high voltage, poorest with a low voltage like 1.5 volts. There for a 1 ma meter the series resistor would be 1.5K, so the two conditions are 1.5 volts 1600 ohms and 1550 ohms a change of 3%. Which could be compensated for by going for a point 3% above half scale rather than half scale.. if the meter could be trusted to be read to 3% and could indicate to 3% which some laboratory meters might.

Gerald J.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

09-19-2007 04:51:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Gerald J., 09-18-2007 13:20:20  
I know.. i wasn't disagreeing with you.. it's just nice to see this type of work still practiced in this throw away society. Most people would not tear into a meter to replace or recalibrate it these days.. they'd just junk it.. etc. when i was in electronics lab in school, I had the coveted job of repairing and calibrating our precision power supplies and test meters / equipment. I loved the simpson meters we had.. wish i still had one.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

09-19-2007 09:07:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to soundguy, 09-19-2007 04:51:57  
Going further than that resistor takes patience, watchmaking skills, and a clean work place. The shops that used to repair meters the old timers that did it got too old and shakey and retired. Even in their good times they had good and bad days. Maybe you can still buy a complete movement for a Simpson 160 or 260 (I keep both on hand for my work benches, the 160 in my traveling tool box, the 260s for everything else where I don't use a scope or DVM) but that may no longer be possible. I don't get deeper than the complete movement or the internal resistor, though I have rejuvinated a Weston clamp on ammeter after it fell 25 feet and that was after I got it surplus and rejuvinated it from the bottom of a surplus bin. And I've destroyed meters while working on them too, so that tends to make me keep my paws out if I can. The repairing of movements is a skill I've not developed to a safe level and its one that I fear is rapidly disappearing from the world.

Gerald J.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

09-19-2007 11:11:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Gerald J., 09-19-2007 09:07:14  
Yep.. that and mechanical voltage regulator setup as well... and that's just air gap and spring tension stuff..

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
tech4

09-18-2007 05:42:48




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
I think you are talking about the coil that actually makes the meter work. Current through the coil creates a magnetic field that works against the permanent magnet in the meter and moves the needle. It is doubtful that you could repair or replace just the coil. You will probably have to get another meter. If you know the sensitivity of meter like 1 ma full scale then you could use a substitute and replace face on meter. Good luck as it is tough to find exact replacement at reasonable cost.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-18-2007 06:09:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to tech4, 09-18-2007 05:42:48  
Tech. 4 This coil/inductor is in series with the main meter coil when I check the continunity (sp) on the other side of the coil/inductor the meter will deflect from the voltage from my ohm meter probes, I don't think the meters main coil is bad. any more suggestions ? I really appreciated the help Thanks Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

09-17-2007 23:44:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-17-2007 21:08:41  
Are there any electronics, such as tubes or transistors in the tester?

Is a "tach" or "dwell" function?

Since it is basically for testing DC voltage and current, I wonder WHY an inductor would be needed?

A sort of filter choke perhaps?

I have a meter that sounds similar to your's. I'll take a look tomorrow to see what brand and model it is, although it seems to me it IS a SUN.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-18-2007 06:22:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Bob, 09-17-2007 23:44:46  
Thanks Bob. Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
DaveF.

09-18-2007 06:19:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Bob, 09-17-2007 23:44:46  
Bob met to comment, No tubes or transitors not even an fuse or diode for overload protection pretty simple set up test lead jacks going directly to the meter. This coil/ inductor is internal in the meter its self. Thanks again Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Sam#3

09-18-2007 07:21:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to DaveF., 09-18-2007 06:19:15  
Two things come to mind since you say the test leads connect direct.
1. The coil is a wire-wound precision resistor used as a current limiter for the milli/micro ammeter.
2. If it is an inductor it is a 'damper' which corrects for fluctuation in the dc signal.
In either case it needs to be an exact replacement to maintain the accuracy of the meter.
Are there any labels indicating manufacture and or type of meter?
I wish you luck.
Sam

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-18-2007 06:10:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Bob, 09-17-2007 23:44:46  
Thanks Bob. Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-19-2007 06:10:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-18-2007 06:10:50  
Gerald, & Tech 4 Here's a little more info on the meter, It has 2 voltage scales, 0-2.0 volts & 0-16 Volts D.C. inlower corner in the meter Has 728-102C probably part# of meter, on the back it has 678 228 at the top in the middle it has Sun 1 in a purple colored circle & the number 219 at the bottom, I didn't see any current rating in millamps. I've never seen an wire wound resitor with cotton insulation on the windings before what would the power rating of the resistor should be ? Thanks again you guys really know your stuff. Dave F.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

09-19-2007 08:58:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-19-2007 06:10:47  
Probably a metal film resistor with a quarter watt rating would be sufficient. The meter movement is probably 1 ma, but it could be more or less sensitive. If you can find the values of the 2 and 20 volt multiplier resistors, then we can figure out the meter current rating and resistance. Because meter resistance plus multiplier resistancce divided into the full scale voltage gives the full scale current and the full scale current will be the same for both ranges.

If its a 1 ma meter the 2 volt multiplier will be 1.9K and the 20 volt multiplier will be 19.9K. and the meter movement 100 ohms. At least that's how I'd have made it. A 1 ma meter movement is fairly sturdy and readily available. A more sensitive movement gets to be a bit fragile and doesn't stand up well in the work environment.

Gerald J.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-19-2007 09:53:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Gerald J., 09-19-2007 08:58:31  
Gerald, you lost me on the multiplier resistors. Are they the ones on the selector switch to switch between volt ranges if so I could get the values of those, they apear to be ok. & Thanks again Dave F.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave F.

09-22-2007 22:07:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Any Volt meter Repair men. in reply to Dave F., 09-19-2007 09:53:06  
Gerald ? You still out there? Ok. here's what I have for resistors on the range switch. The 2 Volt range the wiring goes direct to the meter to the enternal one thats open. 8 volt range 6.21K in series with the internal open one. 16 volt range 8.22K in series( with the 8 volt range 6.21K) lets say 2v range R1 8V range R2 16v range R3, all resistors are in series) Hope this makes senese. (sp) hope you can come up with a value for R1 Thanks again, especially for all your time spent on this topic. Dave F.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy