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rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers.

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RobMD

08-20-2007 15:28:36

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I bought a '95 jeep cherokee with 4x4, 5 speed and a straight six to fix up.

I wanted to get the engine out for a rebuild, and some stupid a$$ engineer decided to put two torx bolts up at the top of the engine mating the engine to the bellhousing. The torx bolts are faced so that they are within 1 inch from the firewall. It takes a complex 3/8 drive extension and universal joint setup to access the bolt. Even after lowering the engine past the mounts for more access, I managed to round off one bolt WITH THE PROPER socket for torx bolts.

I'll kill that engineer who had not bothered to install two regular 18 mm bolts on the top like they did the bottom!! Torx?!?!?!

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J.C.in AZ.

08-29-2007 11:53:57

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

My '85 Jeep Cherokee chief came OEM with a chev. 2.8 V6, A chrysler 727 Trans. and a something or opther transfer Case,well when the Trans went at 186,000 Miles could find no one to fix it except the Dealer for three times what the jeep was worth. One Trans shop said they would work on the Trans if I would bring it in. Long Story Short, I had the same problem. I took the Seats and floor mat etc. out and cut a section around the Trans and up on the Firewall out,And behold the bolts were easy to get at. Welded pc's of 1/8" x 1 1/2 " flat iron to the edge of the cut out Pc. set it back in,Pop riveted it into place,you would never know the pc.had been removed and it sure helped with the Trans removal and install.Never affected the Uni-Body at all. I still drive it almost Daily as relief Vehicle for my Truck.

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ohio

08-27-2007 14:36:21

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

huh. i wonder how much harder it was than on my first truck, a 3/4 chevy. it took 2 u-joints and 4 extensions. or on the w body gm cars, where you had to unbolt the motor mounts and roll the engine ahead to replace the porcilen pipe plugs. better yet, if the battery went dead in that car, the rochester fuel injection forgot how to idle.

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davpal

08-25-2007 09:42:33

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Actually Ford engineers are the worst, but here's an idea. Pull the engine and the transmission out at the same time. It is much easier to pull it out as an assembly. The five speed is not very big or even heavy. You can then get the whole thing on the ground and get at the bolts much better, even if you have to use vice grips on it or even take off the bolt head with a dremel cut off wheel. It is also much easier to install a newer clutch with all of it on the ground. You will be glad you did it later.

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larry baker

08-23-2007 13:05:52

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

had five jeeps so far and had good service out of all of them and allwent over 150000 miles and some 200000.body on the cherokees,sports,etc.seem to leave a little early and road noise is always there.just traded my last one off last week for a nitro and already miss the 25 mpg thing from the ole jeep

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bjr

08-23-2007 08:57:13

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Yeah, me too. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

I've suffered over the years on my own rigs. Then the Daughters cars. The worst was a '92 Hyundai Elantra. Too many nightmares with that car and two salaries weren't enough money for parts for it. Now, I drive a old '93 f-150 ford pickup with inline six, just plain and simple and I go to the wreking yard for parts and don't keep collision insurance, just the liability that's required, on it.The paints peeling of the hood (galvinize is a color isn't it?) and if it gets wrecked too badly I just go buy another one. I use the passenger car 15" tires instead of "LT", much cheaper and I do my own tire work and I honor my own warranty always. It gets Walmart oil and filters. Cheap and proud of it. Oh yeah, I don't have worry about getting dates because of my flashy rides, either. I can't make car payment to a bank 'cause I just got a loan to build a house, so there goes all the savings. bjr

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MeAnthony

08-22-2007 14:25:14

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

I leave the engine on the mounts, drop the transfer case mount(floor jack under the transfer case) and lower the transfer case down. This tilts the rear of the engine down also, giving you slightly easier access to the bolts you mentioned. Just make sure nothing's going to get crunched between the valve cover and the firewall.

For the record: '92 Cherokee, over 300,000 miles, still runs but someone else tore the transfer case out of it. Body-wise, it ain't worth fixing. I did regular maintenance on it, didn't have any trouble with it.

My other '92 Cherokee, it's got 273,000 miles, still drive it every day, no problems.

Sounds to me like someone simply didn't take very good care of yours, somewhere back down the line. As opposed to the 'junk off the assembly line' theories.

Y'all have a good day!

Anthony

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Dan hill

08-22-2007 14:00:18

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Ive worked on a few jeeps.CRAP. Wouldnt take a new one as a gift..

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soundguy

08-21-2007 11:43:39

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

It's not just chrysler engineers.. the 'issue' hits most mech eng's that ahve a hand in designing something.

For instance.. CNH.. many of their tractors have a small bare wire running onthe underside of the tractor and then bullet or spade connected together down there. Ironically.. this wire coming apart means the tractor wont move.

What IDIOT puts a unshielded wire that will disable a piece of equipment on a big ole farm tractor that S/HE kows is gonna be run thru the bramble, bush and muck?.. etc.

As another poster touched on.. however.. it's rarely the eng's fault this happens.. It's usually a bean counter somewhere that advises management that they will save 10 cents on 200 units if they do it 'this' way, vs that way.

Since money talks.. then eng's are usually left with 'down-designing' products to fit a budget and still meet all the specs.. whether they are 'brittle' or not.

in the old days.. robust designs were more prevalent... not so any more..

I'm not hacking on the eng's... I'm one myself.. Though.. I'm a 'target' builder..e tc..

Soundguy

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LMJ755

08-21-2007 07:20:19

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Rob,
I feel many of the same frustrations as others who would like to be a "shade tree mechanic", but run into problems like yours. Having worked with Chrysler/Jeep engineers for many years as a supplier, I can also tell you that I sometimes have had to choke back laughter or roll my eyes at some of the things I see/hear. I attribute much of this to "experience". Most of the older, more "experienced" engineers are gone. Buyouts, retirements target the more senior guys (who make more money). Also, as an earlier poster has stated, more attention is paid to "manufacturability" than "serviceability". I have NEVER heard an engineer be concerned about how the average Joe would repair something. Many times, a part can't be installed because something else is in the way. The option then becomes to do a redesign on the part/parts or change the assembly process in the plant, so that the problem part goes on first. The cheapest route is to change the process, and this often means that a part you CAN SEE won't come out until something else comes out first. To be fair, the engineers are working with handcuffs. Open an engine compartment of a new car and compare to a 1960's vintage car. Also, decisions on changes that will make the product more serviceable but also make it cost more are not solely made by the engineers themselves. Approvals come down from above.

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Blue3992 (N Illinois)

08-20-2007 21:17:56

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Don't ya know what JEEP stands for? Just Empty Every Pocket :)

Seriously though, I've heard from a couple of sources that the reason that some cars can be a pain to work on is that the engineers at the auto companies have one goal when engineering parts on a car: Design for ease of manufacturing. That's it. If they putting torx screws in the back of the engine saves 30 seconds per car in assembly time, they'll do it. They don't care if those Torx screws end up in being tough to wrench on.

Not an excuse, but it is a reason.

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Tim B from MA

08-21-2007 11:22:55

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 08-20-2007 21:17:56

In 1988 or so the small company I worked for bought a Jeep Cherokee. In less than 1 year the window crank handles were falling off, the side view mirror fell out of it's mount, the rear-view mirror fell off the windshield, the interior door covers were falling off, and it was in the shop a couple times for mechanical problems of which I forget.

I never, ever considered buying any Jeep since.

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JoeK(WI)

08-20-2007 19:03:30

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

First off thats a pretty silly subject line for and adult,but I realize you're upset.Couple questions..Did you consult a reputable manual for engine removal procedure or just jump in and start wrenchin?Even the Pros get training and manuals which address such problems often making the job much easier than without.I understand you frustration with such things as I've "been there,done that" a few times myself,but I've learned to simplify life over the years.Your local public or school library often has a Chiltons/Motors/Haynes manual that you can check,or even a brief visit with the Jeep shop foreman may save ya lot's of grief on a job of that magnitude.Plain and simple the Mfgs want the dealers to do the service,maintain the records and get the money.Thats why they provide the training and special tools.It ain't ever gonna change,so all we can do is make use of the same "tools" to give us the same ability.

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NC Wayne

08-20-2007 18:08:08

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

It actually took two engineers to design that problem. Had an auto mechanics teacher in high schoo that worked in Detroit for a number of years at one of the mfgs. His favorite saying was something like "It takes two engineers to design a problem, one to design it and then another to put it somewhere you can"t get to fix it" usually followed by a bit of other cussing of engineers in general.

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rodgernbama

08-20-2007 17:58:13

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

I agree with Joe in the snow. The 4.0 litre inline 6 cylinder is one of the best engines made.

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gahorN

08-27-2007 14:26:49

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to rodgernbama, 08-20-2007 17:58:13

rodgernbama said: (quoted from post at 17:58:13 08/20/07) I agree with Joe in the snow. The 4.0 litre inline 6 cylinder is one of the best engines made.

Yep. It's a great engine in a great auto. My '92 Jeep Cherokee just turned 308,000 miles on SAE 30 wt oil and shows no sign of quitting.
Just because you don't have the proper tools and manuals is no reason to cuss the product. Simple solution: Hire someone to do the job who has knowledge AND tools.

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barnrat

08-20-2007 17:44:24

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

First off I'll say my best friend is a Chrysler engineer. Designed the frame in the 3rd generation trucks and most recently the engine in the '08 Viper. He didn't work for Chrysler when your Jeep was built, heck we were barely out of high school at that time. I am thinking though that you remove the engine with the transmission then separate the two.

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IH2444

08-20-2007 16:46:26

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Jeep is pronounced heap in Mexico.

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Joe in the snow

08-20-2007 17:12:33

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to IH2444, 08-20-2007 16:46:26

Since 1994 I have used right hand drive Jeep Cherokees to deliver mail on rural mail routes. They must start and run everyday whether it's 100 degrees or 40 below zero,mud,snow or ice. They have never failed to complete a route in that 13 year span. My 1994 Cherokee has 286,000 miles and still runs strong, no eng oil added between changes. I am curious to know how someone could ruin one of these fine engines so that it needed a rebuild. And did you read the R&R procedures before you stripped the torx head?

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IH2444

08-21-2007 05:08:47

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to Joe in the snow, 08-20-2007 17:12:33

I had a 70 something CJ and it was junk. engine would flood out when going thru a good sized mud hole.. Had to carry spare voltage regulator in the glove compartment. etc
I had my jeep will never have another one. the mail jeeps were built to govt contract specs.

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Joe in the snow

08-21-2007 16:28:57

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to IH2444, 08-21-2007 05:08:47

My 1994 Cherokee came off the same assembly line in Indiana as the other Cherokees. It was built to MY specs; I sat down with my local Jeep-Chrysler dealer and ordered it. The 26P package was included which was the right hand drive. Totally different vehicle from the CJ Wrangler and DJ series.

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esd19

08-20-2007 16:34:24

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

I had the same problem with a '96 Dodge Dakota and its motor. i was a dodge fan up till then and I seriously doubt if i ever buy anyhing newer than a 1980 now, in fact i really liked my '63 chevy stepside so maybe i'll go back to something like that. Hasn't engineering gone BYE BYE!.

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Stan in Oly, WA

08-20-2007 16:28:10

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

Hi Rob,

You want to be careful about saying something like that. If all Chrysler engineers suddenly turned up dead under suspicious circumstances---well, need I say more? There's no way for you to take it back now; all you can do is keep your fingers crossed that it doesn't happen.

All the best, Stan

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frankiee

08-20-2007 16:27:17

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

I worked in a scrap yard and I called them "Lego Land Cars" because of the way things were put together. Plastic snaps etc. that made taking it apart very difficult unless you got a lot of stuff new.
There were a lot of things that I wondered why they did what they did untill I noticed that they must have did it on purpose. People scrap good cars just because it is so hard and expensive to get them fixed. They could build them with proper access in a lot of cases but..... ..... ..... Would that be a good idea to the new car dealers or the service shops of Chrysler.
Not only Chysler but I think that them then Ford are the worst.
I hope I did not offend any car lovers out there.
This is the way I see it anyhows.

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rb/ct

08-20-2007 16:25:45

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

When Chrysler was sold to Daimler Benz a few years ago, one of the higher ups was quoted as saying, What did you buy that scrap heap for? Their problem is that they go to the lowest cost producer, which compromises quality. Although I will admit that they scored a hit with the new Jeep Wrangler.

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Bob

08-20-2007 15:30:07

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to RobMD, 08-20-2007 15:28:36

You lost ALL credibility with me when you bought a Chrysler product! WHAT were you thinking???

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huntingreen

08-21-2007 20:46:50

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Re: rant about jeep cherokees..I'll KILL chrysler engineers. in reply to Bob, 08-20-2007 15:30:07

I have a Grand Cherokee and would buy another one in a heartbeat. Got a 72 Duster 340 too. Got Chevys, Fords. Don't want any more Fords.

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