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Why mig over stick?

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Bopsgeech

06-11-2001 23:51:16




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I'm a slow, careful buyer when it comes to buying expensive tools. I want to get back into metalworking (from 25+ yrs ago)and recently purchased a torch kit w/ tanks. Am producing consistantly strong welds that also look decent. Want to buy arc welder, (miller thunderbolt ac/dc) but, see the push is towards mig outfits for the home shop. Why? If I want to say, build a car hauling trailer, wouldn't an arc welder be a better choice than a thin wire mig welder? What's the attraction to mig welding? Is it faster than stick? Less slag? Could you weld a trailer with a 110 volt mig w/ gas that would really hold up in such an application? Could a Miller 135 (110 v) really produce a quality weld in 3/16" mild steel? I could gas weld a repair on my tractor that I know would hold, but it is WAY too slow. Thanks for your experience in this matter.

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MrWeldy

06-14-2001 06:48:23




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
I've owned two MIG machines and two stick machines and now have a multi-process (MIG/stick/TIG), and a portable stick machine (Miller Maxxstar 140 - weighs 10 pounds).

The 110 volt MIG machines can weld 1/2-inch metal - BUT the joints have to be prepared correctly (beveled) and the metal must be clean. You will have to use two passes to weld 1/2 inch. Bigger machines will weld in one pass BUT you have to match the wire size to the metal thickness. With .035 wire, the max voltage you can output is about 19 volts and around 225 amps. This will weld 1/2-inch in one pass.

If you want to weld thicker metal the wire has to get larger (.045, .0625) OR you have to run multiple passes. If you go to larger wire, you have to change the MIG gun liner and tips. While not difficult or really expensive it is somewhat time consuming (like 20 minutes start to finish).

What's so neat about MIG? It makes poor weldors look good, and good weldors look great. It lays down neat beads that need very little cleaning afterwords.

You can get flux cored wire for a MIG so that you don't need shielding gas. Beads are still neat but, of course, you have to clean the slag off. If you want to weld outdoors with a MIG you need to use flux cored wire. If you try and weld outdoors using plain steel wire and shielding gas, the welds usually come out poorly because the slightest breeze will disturb the gas and disrupt the shield. Same thing happens in the shop if you turn that nice cooling fan on...(now how did I know that?)

On the higher end models, you can get auxillary push/pull guns and weld aluminum and stainless (with the right shielding gasses). While you can weld without the push/pull gun, you will have to change the standard gun's liner if you've been using steel wire to avoid contamination of the weld through the aluminum or stainless wire picking up carbon steel from the liner after you put steel wire through it.

MIGS weld thin metal (sheet metal) better than anything except TIG. While TIGS are prettier, MIGS are sure faster. MIGS are also a lot like TIGS in that the heat zone is much smaller than a stick welder, so you will often get less material distortion.

Why use a stick welder? Even the inexpensive ones will weld fairly thick steel. You can weld aluminum and stainless with a stick welder (not as neatly as with a MIG, and certainly not as nicely as TIG - but it works).

I have the little Miller Maxxstar because it is portable, will run from 120 or 220 and fits in a small carrying case (17 long x 10 wide x 8 deep) with cables and several different plug adapters. It's about the size of kid's lunchbox and just kicks butt for quick portable welding. In a pinch, I could make it do lift TIG with a small bottle of argon and a $100 torch with a valve.

Weld on brother...

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Jon with an M

06-13-2001 04:55:27




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
I am not a professional, I am a back yard welder. I own gas, stick and mig. Here is what works for me. Mig is good for thin stuff, around 3/8 and under. Stick is good for the thick stuff. If it is too thin I either blow holes in it or get the rod stuck. And finaly some of my prettiest welds have come from my gas rig, but it is slower and I would not use it for stressed welds.



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David Nelson

06-12-2001 22:02:09




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
In response to your MIG over stick, I have been in the welding field for years using both and both processes have their places. Mig welders produce a reliable weld on a variety of metals and thicknesses, but the metal does need to be decently clean. I have never seen a 110 volt Mig that was suited for anything but sheet metal. If you do consider a MIG for repairs around a farm it should at least be a 250-300 amp machine. An excellent machine in my opinion is Esab's Migmaster 300. We purchased one about five years ago for around $1900 and haven't had any problems with it. You also have to consider the enviroment the machine will be stored in, if it is wet you can expect rust on the wire which means the wire is ruined. This can be very costly. In a production enviroment MIG is a great deal faster, but in a farm shop arc is a whole lot more convenient with no gas bottles to fool with.

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Mark Kw

06-12-2001 10:20:49




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
Done right, there is no real difference in the weld itself between MIG (GMAW) and Stick (SMAW).

You still have to match the base metal and filler metals and you have to make a proper weld.

The MIG is faster but not necessary. I own a welding shop and do a lot of field work. Most of my repair work is still done with stick while large jobs are done with MIG when possible for the speed. Time is money, the faster I get done, the more money I can make.

For what you're doing, the choice is up to you. You can get decent 110 volt or 220 volt mig welders that will run you about $500 to $3500 depending upon how fancy and durable you want to get while you could spend between $500 and $3500 for a decent stick welder to do the same work.

If you know how to stick weld and feel more comfortable doing that as opposed to learning MIG, then that's what you should buy. If you wish to learn MIG or don't know either welding process but want a very versatile machine, then you're better off taking some night classes on welding and buying a decent MIG machine like the Miller 250 amp which will do most anything from 26 gauge wood stove smoke pipes to 100 ton haul pack truck bodies made with 1 1/4 thick plate steel.

About the only limit you will have with the stick welder is doing very light gauge stuff. The choice is up to you.

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Joe

03-30-2002 08:26:18




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 Re: Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Mark Kw, 06-12-2001 10:20:49  
We make metal frames (maximum steel thickness is 1/2") and would like to set up our own shop. We are new at the manufacturing end of the business so we are hiring a welder to make them until we learn. I need to know what amp of mig welder I need to buy. Can you help me?



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Steve U.S. Alloys

06-12-2001 05:46:46




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
By design a wire fed welder is a production welding machine. Deposit efficiency is nearly twice that of the SMAW machine. As Sage points out, the learning curve for the new operator is greatly reduced as compared with the eye and hand coordination required of a stick weldor.

Also, as Sage has stated, the GMAW process is best suited to ideal conditions. No dirt, no wind.

Another consideration for those who frequently join different material compositions is the fact that wires must be purchased in preset quantities often larger than SMAW electrode quantities that can sold in one pound increments or less. One shielding gas will not be compatible with all metals and applications either.

Regarding the smaller machines in the 110V class: Duty cycle is the biggest drawback for joining thicker sections. A 130 amp machine will run a bead on mild steel of approximately 8" at full output before the thermal overload circuit kicks out. Immediately afterward, bead length may be limited to around 3" to 4". Portability is a big plus though. Especially for short runs or joining thin materials. A 5000 watt generator will operate a 130 amp wire machine at full output.

Our company has wires designed to enhance the maintenance capabilities of wire fed welders but studies show SMAW machines are utilized to the tune of around 40% for repair situations today.
Steve

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Sage

06-12-2001 03:46:34




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 Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Bopsgeech, 06-11-2001 23:51:16  
There are a lot more folks on this board who are more knowlegeable than me, but I can answer some of your questions. I don't know anything about the small mig welders, but the larger ones are a dream to operate. My ESAB 250 amp mig welder will allow me to accomplish probably three or four times the amount I can with a stick, maybe more. The only drawback it has is if the metal is not clean or if there is an air current the weld will not be worth a damn. The stick welder still has its place and everyone should have to learn to use one before they call themself a welder, but the learning curve on a mig is very easy.

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Bus Driver

06-12-2001 05:05:13




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 Re: Re: Why mig over stick? in reply to Sage, 06-12-2001 03:46:34  
Since you have and are proficient with the oxy/acetylene outfit, the next addition to your welding equipment should be the stick electrode outfit. The MIG is a nice supplement to the other 2 and will do clean welding quickly. Speed is less important in the home shop. I would have more confidence in the home-built trailer welded with stick than with MIG.



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