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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

ULSD diesel

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railhead

07-20-2007 19:44:55

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Well I have heard a lot about damage the new 15 ppm sulfur diesel can do to your inj pump and engine. I read a few months ago where a guy was dumping his used motor oil back into his diesel for lube. I thought then that was extreme but now hearing this scary stuff about drying seals, drying out pumps etc, and thinking about buying stuff like Power Services, Howes, Lucass, diesel additive, utilizing your used lube oil seems like a prety good idea. Good for your engine, good for your pump, good for the environment (compared to dumping it on the ground). What do you diesel guys think? How would you filter this stuff before pouring it in the tank? Man just when I thought my pick up truck (99 Cummins Dodge) would last me a while, I get this scare.

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07-26-2007 08:37:38

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Just add some 'Neutra' from Schaeffers' to every fill-up and be done with it.

Schaeffers

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Ludwig

07-21-2007 15:54:52

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Makes you wonder why US manufacturers use such crappy injection pumps. My diesel Mercedes has had zero problems on maybe 15,000 miles of ULSD.
I would be worried about lube oil in the fuel because of the soot. I'd be concerned it might plug an injector. Also I use synthetic oil and it doesn't burn for squat.
If you are real concerned just dump a quart of really cheap motoroil in each tank.
or
If you've got a gas vehicle also you could add that. Remember synthetic oil doesn't burn well at all. Try it if you don't believe me...

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ric1

07-21-2007 18:37:27

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Ludwig, 07-21-2007 15:54:52

what is it about high sulfur diesel thats hard on injectors

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Ludwig

07-21-2007 19:18:38

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to ric1, 07-21-2007 18:37:27

High sulpher contributes to acids forming as a combustion byproduct. Getting rid of it helps us run long oil change durations. It also helps the environment.

I'm given to understand that its not the sulpher's presence that saves the injection pump but rather the processes used to take it out also strip away the lubricity of the fuel. Supposedly there is lubrication added back to the fuel to help but maybe not enough? Anyway like the other poster said Mercedes provides for lubrication in the injection pump. The supposedly "Quality first" truck makers pretty much don't.

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jdemaris

07-21-2007 18:19:54

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Ludwig, 07-21-2007 15:54:52

The rotary pumps are used because they are cheaper and more compact. The guy that invented the Stanadyne rotary pump - Vernon Roosa - did so with the intention of making it feasable for U.S. tractor companys to change over to diesel from gas. Hercules-Cletrac was the first to use it, and John Deere was the second - in 1960. Veron Roosa's company eventually changed their name from Hartridge Tool to Stanadyne. The main reason why in-line pumps are so much better is - they do much less work and have NO distributor section. It is the distributor section of rotary pumps that suffers wear and/or siezure problems with certain fuels. If you have a four cylinder engine - with an inline pump - at 2000 RPM each pump works 1000 times a minute. Now, take a four cylinder engine with a rotary pump at 2000 RPM - and the one and only set of pump plungers operates 4000 times in one minute. Move on to a V-8 diesel and the difference is more dramatic. A GM 6.2/6.5 diesel - or a Ford-IH 6.9/7.3 - at 2000 RPM - cycles the one set of pump plungers 8000 times per minute! If these engines had inline pumps - each pump would only have to work 1000 times at 2000 RPM in one minute. In regard to all the gloom and doom about mixing used engine oil in diesel? I've done it for years and never had a problem with it. Year's ago, it was very common, especially with big-rig road diesels and large truck stops. The used oil is highly filtered in the engine. In my case, it then gets dumped in my 1000 gallon diesel tank. The pump on that tank has dual filters. Then, once in the tank of my truck - it gets filtered again by the diesel filters. Seems all that does not allow much to make it to the pump.

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n9lhm

07-22-2007 08:50:12

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to jdemaris, 07-21-2007 18:19:54

The question that no one can seem to answer me about burning used crankcase oil is this:
If there was nothing harmful in it, then why are you changing it? Why are you taking it out of the engine crankcase?
The answer, I believe, is that it contains acids and combustion by-products that cannot be removed by filtering, and that is why you still have to change crankcase oil even though it has been filtered thoroughly.
So, why would you want those harmful chemicals running through an injection pump that has polished metal surfaces and tolerances 10 times tighter than the inside of the engine?
Seems like a no-brainer to me.

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Ludwig

07-21-2007 19:14:40

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to jdemaris, 07-21-2007 18:19:54

Thanks for the reminder. If you're bypass filtering your oil (I expect big rigs pretty much all do, especially on extended duration) then go ahead and use it, all the soot will be filtered out. If you aren't bypass filtering (I don't and really don't see the need but my car only holds 6 quarts of oil, more oil would change my mind) then be prepared for clogged injectors.

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07-21-2007 17:25:48

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Ludwig, 07-21-2007 15:54:52

Read that Mercedes had the injector pumps lubed by engine oil, JD used the same design. GM and some others used a design that depended on the fuel to provide internal to pump lubricating, some troubles with low sulfer/low lube fuel. European low sulpher diesel has been around for a few years but noted to have added lube stock- some 'biodeisel/vegatable oil' references, some coal conversion/ Fischer-trosch oil references. We will see in a few years like the unleaded gas concerns about valve wear. RN

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Farmall MD

07-21-2007 10:22:41

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Back in the mid 90's I worked at Ryder truck. New trucks would come thru and we used to put on what's called an oil blender. It was a fitting that took the place of the oil plug, a hose attached to the fitting went up to a bulkhead fitting on the frame rail. There was a quick conect fitting on that hose. At oil changes, they'd pump the drain oil into the fuel tank. Made for a clean oil change, but you still lost some when changing filter. Doug N

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JTinNJ

07-23-2007 01:37:21

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Farmall MD, 07-21-2007 10:22:41

I used to drive for Cumberland Farms. They had International trucks that had cat engines.When I left that company in 2000 some of the trucks had 500,000 miles on them and the oil had never been changed.Every so many miles it would pump some of the engine oil into the fuel tank. Change the filters every 10,000 miles and add oil when needed.A sticker on the side of the motor said, DO NOT DRAIN CRANKCASE OIL.I've told people about this and they don't believe me.This is the first time I ever known anyone else to know about it.

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T_Bone

07-21-2007 13:42:27

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Farmall MD, 07-21-2007 10:22:41

I'm with Doug. Cummins has been using a OTR oil change system for many years, over 10 years for extended oil changes, 100k? It takes used motor oil direct from the crank case to be direct injected into the fuel. There's a 5gal make-up oil container on the frame rail. Only the oil filter needs to be changed. Do a Google search for current info.

My son worked for a company with over 400 pieces of diesel equipment and at every oil change, what was drianed from the engine was poured back into the fuel tank with no prefiltering. In 6yrs He never seen any excessive repairs needing to be done form such practice.

Me I use ATF type F at 1qt@100gal. No it takes 100 times that much just to see a slight color change. I end up with a very quite running engine with very little injector ware. I've got about 400k on ATF.

T_Bone

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newriverboy

07-24-2007 16:12:15

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-21-2007 13:42:27

T-Bone, I don't have the filtering system you have but would like to start using ATF in my stock fuel tank. I have a 2000 Ford power stroke with 175,000 mi. on it and would also to know if there is anything special I need to do before starting?

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railhead

07-21-2007 19:34:19

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-21-2007 13:42:27

Thanks for chiming in T_bone. I know I didn"t just imagine that a guy on this very forum said he dumped hid used motor oil in his diesel fuel. I am just thinking about protecting my engine. I have no intent of dumping sand or carbon in my engine. I DID ask about what would be a good way to filter this used oil to prepare it for blending with diesel but noone addressed that.

A guy drove here 130 miles last week to look at a tractor in a Mercedse diesel car, he ran it on PURE vegetable oil. I was surprised but he said he does it all the time. With fuel 3.00 a gallon...who isn"t thinking about a way to get some relief?????

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T_Bone

07-21-2007 22:36:24

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-21-2007 19:34:19

Hi RH,

I triple filter my fuel. On my aux tank, I use a Racor 10u filter then thru a Dahl 150, 2u filter then into my main truck tank where it gets the last factory Racor final filtering.

I use a Flojet 12v 5gpm transfer pump. I never fill my main truck tank from the fuel stop pump. This year I'll be adding my waste oil into my aux tank. I'm not going to loose any sleep over my fuel filtered with my above set-up.

T_Bone

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railhead

07-22-2007 16:10:09

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-21-2007 22:36:24

T_Bone, That somuds like adequate filtering for the fuel before it is pumped into your tank and put at the mercy of the auto maunfaturer's pitiful idea of a filter. But think about this....how could the waste oil be filtered BEFORE it meets your fuel? I have thought about pouring it through coffee filter type devices, as well as pumping it through filters such as your aux fuel filters. I just feel it would be beneficial to filter it before adding it to your fuel.

That is where my initial thoughts were.

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Ludwig

07-22-2007 08:02:41

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-21-2007 22:36:24

I can see not losing sleep after that filter process, thats clean fuel for sure.
Have you had problems with dirty fuel in the past?
I'm relatively new to the diesel world, I've got only maybe 80,000 miles in Mercedes diesel cars. In that time I've maybe had 2-3 tanks of bad fuel, one caused by buying fuel while running on near empty in the middle of the night, had to buy it there, there were no other stations that had diesel at that time of night...

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T_Bone

07-23-2007 08:14:01

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to Ludwig, 07-22-2007 08:02:41

Hi Ludwig,

No I've just been the opposite over the years, exreamly clean fuel, or clean as I would expect from a fuel stop pump. I only buy Flying J fuel, 99% of the time as I found zero problems with there fuel for the past 20yrs. On my VW diesel I found Flying J would produce consistantly 52mpg each and every tank, but another fuel stop would be 35mpg, so I stuck with Flying J as much as I could.

On my 02 F350 PSD, I'm also running a aux tank so I can pick where to buy my fuel and not be forced to buy just any where. That gives me a 2000mile range before I need fuel again. That should also help not having to buy the higher priced fuel latter on thru the year.

With the newer injector configerations where injectors run $200eh, I just figured $100 of pre-filtration was a good investment. Now I'm even thinking of adding a diesel car in the next couple years so my pre-filter idea just got cheaper.

T_Bone

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Ludwig

07-21-2007 19:20:33

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-21-2007 13:42:27

Beware mixing your throughts for big rigs with that of the smaller trucks. I'm not sure about construction equipment but I bet nearly all big rigs filter their oil for soot. I bet that nearly nobody has bypass filtration on their pickup...

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07-21-2007 07:47:45

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Best thing to do is buy good quaity fuel. The ELSD is not going to do anything to your truck, if it were, I am sure some lawyer would ahve filed a lawsuit somewhere. As for adding used motor oil to your fuel, doing that woudld be somewhere in the line od putting sand in your fuel, you have all the carbon, and fine metal aprticles in your used oil that will flat destroy any and all of the engine and fuel system from wear.

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djm75

07-21-2007 05:25:08

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

use a biodiesel blend bio has more lubricity and is better for the environment then the old sulfur packed petro diesel. The only thing to watch out for is it does clean extremely well and will clean your entire fuel system you may need a few filters for awhile.

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frankiee

07-21-2007 04:42:32

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

I might be way off here but here is my best guess.
I was a marine engineer on ships and so far to my knowledge they are not going thru pumps or not adding additives to the fuel.
If there was a concern, I would think they would be protecting their $500,000 + investments in the engines.

If I were a manufacturer of additives I would be flooding the market with stories of the sky falling due to problems with the new fuel and people better buy my product for $9.99

Like I said, I may be off base here but I usually watch the big investors and see what they are doing

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MSM

07-20-2007 22:42:22

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Used motor oil is not a good idea due to the metals and other contaminants,especially in the newer pumps.I would not use it in a fuel system at all with a set of electronic injectors now costing $2000+.The older rotary or inline pumps need the lubricity that sulfer or another additive gives. A reasonably inexpensive alternative is 2 stroke oil.

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TomTeX

07-21-2007 06:31:19

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to MSM, 07-20-2007 22:42:22

MSM, I think you have mistated the situation when you say "need the lubricity that sulfer or another additive gives". Engineers have told me that sulfer does not lubricate anything. The fefining process that removes the sulfer, also removes the natural lubricity from the fuel. Sulfer was not good for any engine. Tom

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Anand Gupta

07-23-2007 02:14:30

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reciprocal link request in reply to TomTeX, 07-21-2007 06:31:19

We have visited your site and would like to exchange link.

hfrr

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woodbutcher

07-21-2007 04:38:24

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to MSM, 07-20-2007 22:42:22

Can you give me some idea about how much 2-stroke oil to add per 20-gal. tank?
Butch

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Bob

07-20-2007 22:30:57

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

What makes you think used motor oil, full of chemical contaminates, and metal particles is good for the high-precision parts in the fuel injection system, that operate under EXTREME pressures???

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bjb in Ne

07-20-2007 21:22:02

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

Sounds like your rattling off all the same concerns that people were historically worried about when they removed lead from the gasoline. Chemically I don't see how removing the sulfur has any effect on the lubricity of the diesel. It is mostly just a contaminate of crude oil. Using old motor oil probably will do more damage than if you just did nothing at all. Most of the additives you could buy probably don't do anything other than make your wallet lighter.

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ric1

07-20-2007 20:30:32

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Re: ULSD diesel in reply to railhead, 07-20-2007 19:44:55

i work for a large construction company and i havent heard alot of bad things happening yet. i have a 06 duramax and havent had any problems yet.but im no diesel expert by any means have to see what the future brings i guess.i sometimes mix mine with some #2 heat oil which is high sulfur doesnt seem to hurt anything or run any different.

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