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Speed limits

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Bus Driver

07-13-2007 05:01:30

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In the local paper today, a letter to the editor urged the adoption of nationwide 35 mph speed limit citing the fuel saving and the reduced severity of accidents. Looking at only the technical aspects of such a proposal, obviously wind-drag and damage in accidents do increase with increases in speed. They increase significantly with higher speeds. I have a 1998 Chevy 1500 with the 4.3 V-6 and automatic transmission. Due to the electronic control of the transmission, lockup overdrive and other features, the engine actually turns more RPM at steady 40 mph than it does at steady 60 mph. Looks to me as if many of today's vehicles might get poorer fuel economy at certain lower speeds. Wife's car with automatic operates about the same. What have you observed about your vehicles?

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VADAVE

07-18-2007 08:35:50

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

This isn't going to happen!! There are just too many economic things that would be impacted.
When was it that cars drove 35mph between villages? Do we want an economy like existed then? Of course Planes and Diesel trains would be a thing of the past, as would modern ships.

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Don-Wi

07-14-2007 23:27:12

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I drove my car (95 olds acheiva w/ V6)from Plymouth, Wi to a suburb of Chicago and back up to home in Kaukauna, Wi going a steady 70-75 MPH most of the way there and 75-85 on the way back(getting late, missed the 1st 2 trains back to our cars and wanted to get home NOW) When I filled up the next time I averaged 30+MPG in that car, the best yet. I've done a few other longer trips with it around a constant 70 or so, and the best I got was 28 before that. As a daily driver I average about 24 MPG going about 5 miles to work, and once every other week or so to Appleton, putting on about 60-70 miles in a good day.

My 88 F150, 2 wd, 5 sp. Mazda w/ 300/6 engine, will get me 18 MPG+ going highway 70-75. I drove it down to Kenosha delivering 85 BU. seed oats spring of '06 and pulling my little trailer, I still got better side of 18 or the round trip, and I was going a good 70-75, espescially in Milwaukee just to keep up with traffic. Going around Lake Winnebago the other way through Plymouth to avoid as much traffic as possible, was 65-70, if not faster.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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Steve Crum

07-14-2007 21:58:40

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Most people never understood the reasoning behind the original 55 mph speed limit. An engineer from GM feilded the question of why, when I was in tech school back in the 70s. 99% of the vehicles on the road at that time were carburated, and most had the nasty little gizmo called a power valve in the carb that opened and applied tremendous amounts of fuel to an engine at approx 60 mph and faster whether the engine efficently used it or not. With the later advent of computerized engine management and fuel injection, Fuel application is very proportional to the needs of the engine at any speed. Hence an engine can easily run as or more efficent at 75 mph as it can at 55 mph. The time running factor is a determining factor in this as if a trip between point A and point B can be made in 3 hours running time instead of 4 there is 1 hour less running time creating efficencies well beyond the amount of fuel used. This led to the move away from the 55 mph speed limit as the percentage of carburated vehicles still on the road becomes less and less every day.

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James in North Carolina

07-14-2007 21:49:27

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I drive a 2002 Grand Prix and my mileage at 55 is ~32mpg. At 60-65 it is ~28mpg. So I usually drive 55 on the highway. Low acceleration from a stop helps my mileage a lot too.

cwhinton, I live in Southern Pines and know exactly what you mean. We have a lot of the 35 in a 55 crowd here.

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fixerupper

07-16-2007 07:11:34

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Re: Speed limits in reply to James in North Carolina, 07-14-2007 21:49:27

Our average mileage hasn't gone up very far through the years. Back in the forties cars were getting 20+ mpg at 50-55 mph. My 73 Plym Satellite with a carbureted 318 straight stick and 275 rear end got 20-21 on long trips when the speed limit was 70 and I was 20 something with a lead foot. The best it did was 22 at 60 mph on a 150 mile trip. Now my wife's '05 Intrepid with a 2.7 V6 (never again) gets 24 when she drives to work and 25 when I push it hard on longer trips. That's not much improvement considering the advance in technology. The Satellite weighed 4000 pounds when I weighed it at the local co-op. I don't know what the Intrepid weighs, but I'm sure it's less. It's true we have more horsepower today but when we are at cruising speed, weight and mast still play the same role in determining MPG. Both my wife and I record every drop of gas that goes into our vehicles, and it's interesting to see how mileage is affected by changes in our driving habits. In the spring and fall when I'm pressured by planting and harvesting, my '92 S-10 gets 19 mpg but in the summer and winter when I'm more ralaxed it does 21-22. I call it my "mood meter" Jim

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doug in illinois

07-14-2007 16:01:47

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I saw in some of the earlier postings the very same experience I have with my 2001 Chevy 4x4 2500. At 65 to 70 with no trailer behind it it makes about 17 to 18 MPG. At 55 it hasn"t shifted into overdrive to stay there. You hit hills at 55 with it in overdrive and it will shift out, at 60 or better it stays in overdrive.

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RayP(MI)

07-14-2007 15:27:29

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Many don't remember when we had the last "fuel crisis" and they lowered the speed limit to 55. Many had a very difficult time with that. Based on my observations, nobody observes the 55, does anyone really think there'll be a large number of drivers who would observe 35? FAT CHANCE>

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Bob - MI

07-14-2007 07:51:00

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I am betting that the old timer that wrote this letter of suggestion to the editor is now wearing a wig because her blue hair fell out. You've seen her in front of you, driving 10~15 miles under the limit with nothing visible other than knuckles on the wheel.

I remember the days of 55mph and if you didn't do any highway driving it was OK. If you did actually want to travel it was maddening.

I did some math: I live in West Michigan and Los Angeles is about 2500 miles from here (drove it a few). Figuring an efficiency of 85% it will take 84 hours to reach there. Not sure that I would be willing to do that. I think the suggestion about voting out any idiots that endorse this is spot on.

By the way, want to talk about fuel consumption? The US Air Force uses about 7.0 million gallons a day. The F-16 uses 300 gallons per minute at full afterburner. Don't tell me that my car getting 27 mpg at highway speeds is the problem child.

Sorry but this kind of thing really bothers me.

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Bret4207

07-14-2007 06:23:13

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

As a 20 year cop I can confidently say, without doubt or question, that the #1 cause of accidents is the dreaded "cranial-rectal inversion".

BTW- I have people PASS me in my Troop car (a van) when I drive 63-65 mph to keep things from backing up. What does this guys think is gonna happen at 35 mph?

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Robert E. Smith

07-14-2007 05:00:05

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Don't matter how much you debate it complain about it or Bi_ch about it!
If if really is put forth!
And you don't get off your Butt's and Vote against it!
You got to live with it!
We need to stand up and be heard! Not just complain in the background!

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cwhinton

07-14-2007 00:52:02

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I live near Chapel Hill NC and judging by the way many people around here drive, you'd think the speed limit is already 35 mph.

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mike6845

07-13-2007 19:54:15

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Before too much longer, you are going to have the road all to yourself if you can afford to buy any fuel so you can go what ever speed you wish. We have a major problem coming and don't have any easy answers. I see $6/gal coming soon and $10/gal later if you can even get it. Best we get rid of the idiots we have running this country and start being nice to the guys who have the oil instead of getting them mad and siding with those who don't have any oil.

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Bret4207

07-14-2007 06:18:01

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Re: Speed limits in reply to mike6845, 07-13-2007 19:54:15

Mike6845- The "guys with the oil" are the ones who want you dead or converted, who think it's a good idea to mutilate your 11 year old daughters sx organs with a rusty knife and who bake little boys and serve them to their family to get co-operation. Of course there is Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, you know, Citgo Oil. Wonder why he's buying submarines from China?

So, no offense intended, but it's a bit more complicated than it seems.

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mike6845

07-14-2007 18:22:37

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bret4207, 07-14-2007 06:18:01

Bret:

All due respects but you better think twice before you buy more Chinese goods. Right now the Chinese have completed almost 70 oil and energy deals around the world and have paid for them with our dollars. (One of their biggest is in Sudan/Darfur area) Their attitude when dealing is we don't care about your politics or religions, we don't care what your stance is on human rights or the enviroment all we want to do is to make an energy deal. BTW, the USA in fact has been chased out of oil countries and has made zero large oil deals this year. Iran has just told the Japanese to start paying for their oil in yen, they will no longer accept dollars, yea, $10 gas is coming our way especially if the crazies in Washington further infuriate other oil countries by invading Iran.

So bury your head in the sand, and keep up with all the feel good issues and BTW, re-elect your tired old politician so hs/she can do more of the same to us.

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Bret4207

07-15-2007 18:13:45

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What? in reply to mike6845, 07-14-2007 18:22:37

So, if we"re NICE to the guys that want us dead, they"ll turn into Mr. Rogers and GIVE us the oil? Who"s head is buried in the sand?

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mike6845

07-16-2007 18:02:39

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Re: What? in reply to Bret4207, 07-15-2007 18:13:45

I guess our only other option is to take their oil away from them. So far, it's cost us about 3500 soldiers and it doesn't seem to be working does it? Oh, better yet, let's all grow corn for ethanol and see how fast we really get behind the ball. BTW, China has outlawed all corn and grains to be used for ethanol (they are the 3rd largest producer) Now watch them come running over here with our dollars in hand to buy all the corn they can. Yes, I see $10 pork chops and $10 gas, what do you see? Re-elect your local senator and representative we need more punishment!!!!

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buickanddeere

07-13-2007 19:51:58

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Best of intentions but no clue of reality.

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Chris in MD

07-13-2007 19:18:49

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

That's B.S. Not gonna happen.

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trucker40

07-13-2007 17:55:21

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

After spending the last 15 years on the highway the biggest problem I see is people going too slow.If they lowered the speed limit nobody would slow down and it would be like I saw a bunch of trucks in Ohio do one time,they got together coming across Mo,Il,and In and hit Ohio at about 80 MPH,all the Bears did was set in the middle with their lights on.They were mad,cussing on the CB and stuff,but they didnt do anything more than set in the middle and gripe.The reason for it was Ohio has a 55 MPH speed limit on big trucks,with 65 for cars,and its hard to drive in Ohio,plus they catch a big truck going 56 and they would pull you over.I think its mostly crooks that want to lower speed limits,we need to drive about the speeds we do now,and slow vehicles need to get out of the way.As far as fuel is concerned we need hydrogen or alcohol or something else,or if I have to drive a big rig at 35 your groceries are going to cost a lot more than they do now,and are going to get hard to find.Trucking is a hard enough job now,there are actual human beings that drive trucks,how would you like to be in California today and your air conditioner quit,then have your load cancel,then not be able to idle your truck,because of some more crooked laws,then be someplace where there is no hotel,motel,or food to eat,for a couple of days,waiting to pick up produce,then have to drive 1500,2000 miles with little or no sleep only to have some crook say "I aint taking those 2 pallets on the front"so then you have to spend the rest of your day trying to find a place to git rid of 2 pallets,mad,hot,tired,no sleep,and you have to go down the highway too.Yeah,Billy Big Rig might be in a hurry,but if we slow down you might have to start eating food thats a little more spoiled,or waiting a lot longer to get something you ordered,or not finding all that stuff at the next store you need to go to,especially groceries.You might even want to get in your car and go get it yourself,its most likely going to get too expensive to haul some stuff if a trucker has to be out here at 35 MPH,or the price would have to go way up,or you need to make a robot that can drive a truck.

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john in la

07-15-2007 11:48:57

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Re: Speed limits in reply to trucker40, 07-13-2007 17:55:21

You sure got a lot to learn about truck driving.

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Ludwig

07-14-2007 12:09:08

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Re: Speed limits in reply to trucker40, 07-13-2007 17:55:21

Well, if our railroads could fix their cranial rectal inversion we wouldn't need to inefficiently use trucks for long hauls.
Also if we could get people to buy stuff (particularly food) thats not from the other side of the planet so much we wouldn't need as much shipping period...

Its not just any one thing.
As to the 35mph speedlimit, get real, somebody's yanking your chain.

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the tractor vet

07-14-2007 05:35:17

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Re: Speed limits in reply to trucker40, 07-13-2007 17:55:21

Well since you have been only playen truck driver for 15 years your still a rookie and ya need to learn a bunch more about driven truck as you are thisNEW BREED of truck drivers that yes your going to get mad here but it is the truth ya would not even make a pimple on a real truckdrivers donkey if ya think that ya need to run 80-90 MPH and whine about the 55 MPH and i suppose that your one of them drivers that has to be wright on somebodys donkey pushen them down the road or pass somebody and just whip it in with one or two blinks of the turn signal if ya even use it . And Oh yea you would not even stop to help a fellow driver out along side the road . Yep your one of the new genaration truck drivers . And you would probably be one of them guys that if the rate was low and there was 25 guys looken for a loadyou would cut the rate by 50 cents just so you could get back down the road.

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the tractor vet

07-13-2007 16:00:28

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

ANd ya mean that people realy do drive the speed limit , yea wright . Myself i think that they should just remove the speed limits and let the nut cases have at it when the dust settels scrap them or at least whats left of them off the roads and that way ya get rid of the bad drivers . While i was playen commercial tourist i noticed one thing while running thru the states that did have the higher speed limits that most of the natives were running at or below the posted limits and the tourists were the ones that were hammer down and get out of my way as i got to go . Then there was BILLY BIG RIGGER that he had to see just how fast his big rig could go and i would get blowed off the road at 75 by them running at or over the trippel digits.

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LenND

07-13-2007 15:31:31

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Just finished a 3400 mile trip thru S.D., Wy.,Colo.,Utah, Idaho, Wash.,Mont. and N.D.Most speed ,limits are 70 or 75 mph and 65 thru the mountains some places. I got a Lucerne Buick (2006) with 17,000 miles. Just figured my gas mileage and it came to 24.8-a whole lot better than I thought I would get. The best mileage was 28.4 in the mountains and I don't baby my cars very much. Plus the temps were from 98 above in Wyoming to 106 in Yakima, Wash.

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Vern-MI

07-13-2007 13:38:04

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

My dad scares me when he drives his Crown Vic on US31 at 35 MPH where the limit is 70 MPH. I said "Dad you have to speed up and move with the traffic because as it is you are scaring the heck out of me". He replied "Wait till I speed up and and you will really be scared"!

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Mike M

07-13-2007 11:08:47

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

That would jamb the roadways full of traffic.

Wasn't too long ago some kids did a study and filmed it of what happens if eveyone drove the same speed-55 they were on a large 4 lane or so hiway that was 55 speed limit and they all lined up and went 55 and that jambed up traffic for miles back.

Just look at what happens locally when the cops are out. It backs up our 2 lane. Everyone bunches up.

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07-13-2007 08:40:17

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

I know this is from 25 years ago, but in 1980 I had a Ford courier that had a 2.3L 4 cylinder with a 4 speed behind it. I left Springfield, IL drove across Rte 36 to Cameron, Mo, up and down hills, at 70 MPH. Got 33 mpg. On the way back, I drove the speed limit of 55 MPH, got 23 MPG. though it was fluke, my brother had a 1980 Ford Mustand, same engine, same 4speed tranny, he got the same results with his car.

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msb

07-13-2007 08:14:06

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Can't have that. Half the body shops would be out of business.

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Jimmy King

07-13-2007 09:14:47

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Re: Speed limits in reply to msb, 07-13-2007 08:14:06

No they wouldn"t half the people would be falling asleep and crashing.

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Goose

07-13-2007 07:24:54

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

There is no blanket answer. As an insurance inspector, I get a lot of windshield time in a '92 Olds 88. It has all the toys and will read both instantaneous and average fuel mileage. Fuel makes a BIG difference. It will average 32 mpg at 75 mph running on regular 87 octane, and 28 mpg at 60 mph on 10% ethanol. Overall average on whatever is in the tank runs about 24. I won't buy 10% ethanol unless it's 10 cents per gallon cheaper than regular 87 octane.

Now, this is a 15 year old full size car with 204,000 miles on the clock. When you read road tests of the current crop of bare bones, compact econoboxes, they won't do any better on mileage. Why?

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jml755

07-13-2007 05:27:09

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Best gas mileage I get is at 70mph on the hiway with my Pontiac Grand Prix with the 3.8L supercharged engine (30 mpg tops). Average 22-24 overall city & highway. It's kind of hard to tell what I would get if I drove steady at 35mph since that never happens. If the speed limit is 35mph, you're on a city street with traffic lites, etc. Dropping the speed limit is a ridiculous idea anyway as it will only cause more traffic jams (reducing gas mileage for people standing still in those jams). Here in Michigan, they raised the speed limits back to 70 MPH except in certain areas within city limits (55 mph) and I noticed a big difference in how much better traffic flowed with the increase from 65mph to 70mph. 55 mph is ridiculously slow on an expressway. Through the City of Detroit (55mph) traffic will get clogged up with everyone hitting their brakes, eventually causing a jam. When I finally get around it, I often find someone doing 55 MPH (or slower) causing the backup. Even the State Police will tell you that it's not so much the speed that causes accidents, it's the difference in speeds between different vehicles. Truckers must travel at slower speeds legally and this causes a lot of accidents with people pulling out trying to get around them. Today's cars travel much better at higher speeds than cars of yesteryear (better engines, suspensions, tires, roads). I've driven cars that at 90 mph on a nices expressway, you could take your hands off the wheel without a problem. On the other hand, my 1960 Ford Falcon used to scare the bejeebers out of me doing 60 mph.

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bjb in Ne

07-13-2007 05:26:59

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

Depending on the vehicle, its gearing and other factors the 55-65 mph range is where the peak efficiency for modern cars lays. Any more and your fighting drag (which is proportional to the SQUARE of your speed). Any less and your not using the power and transmission to its full capacity. Fuel economy (and safety) is also related to how you drive. Going from 0-60 in 5 seconds wastes gas (and is less safe). Just changing public driving habits would improve the national fuel economy and safety. I went to Wyoming at the start of the summer from Nebraska to get a plow. I took the highways and tried to accelerate as slowly as possible. The result was 19 mpg for a 2000 chevy silverado at around 63 mph. I had estimated I would only get 15 mpg. Not overly significant alone but multiply a savings of 4 mpg by every vehicle on the road in the US and there is significant savings.

The current problem with higher gas prices is very complex. There is no one single solution.

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karl f

07-13-2007 21:20:45

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Re: Speed limits in reply to bjb in Ne, 07-13-2007 05:26:59

looking at the actual stock gearing of a car, and the recommended gearing from aftermarket companies, and input from people who went numerically higher to a gear ratio on that aftermarket company's chart; my conclusion is that car makers chose a car's gearing to meet certain mandated tailpipe EMISSIONS limitations at a certain mph and engine rpm, versus optimum operating *efficiency* for the drivetrain combo in the car. which means that while the output of pollutants is being reduced, the amount of fuel consumed may be higher because of an engine operating in the wrong power band to meet emissions. to me, reduced fuel consumed with better power use is more important than the reduction of the exhaust emissions. for example, my car is a 95 chevy caprice with 2.93 gearing. it is a very aerodynamic body style--i believe its drag coefficient was rated .3 or 1.3 some really low number? stock it averages 21 mpg. at 60 its engine turns around 1400 in overdrive. i have read countless e-mailing list posts (yes there's clubs for those cars) of those with the same or 3.08 (almost the same) gears switching to 3.23 or 3.42s or so and gaining economy both in town, and on the highway, even though the engine turns faster. they've found the optimal point where the engine is most efficient but would probably fail the mandated tailpipe emission standards from that year. on the other hand, when they go to 3.73 or 4.11 they lose a lot of highway, but their in town economy goes up, along with the fun factor. why do you think trucks are so popluar with people that don't need them? they feel fast at 0-60 since those gears aid in torque.
more to think about, even more i didnt write!
karl f

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JoeK(WI)

07-13-2007 05:15:28

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Re: Speed limits in reply to Bus Driver, 07-13-2007 05:01:30

My 06 Rock has trip computer,have checked fuel economy at 45,55,60,70,for 5 mi runs on cruise.Truck is apparently"set-up" for maximimum efficiency at 55-60 as reported mpg falls off fairly sharply at lower or higher speeds.Last long trip,using cruise whenever possible and featherfooting pulled 20.8mpg.Not bad in my book for a Fullsize V8/auto Clubcab 4wd :)

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woodbutcher

07-13-2007 05:49:05

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Re: Speed limits in reply to JoeK(WI), 07-13-2007 05:15:28

Well, Bus Driver, what does it matter what speed limit is posted? Here in Texas most people seem to drive at whatever speed they want to. Enforcement is spotty, and then only for huge indiscretion (either 45 in a 70 or 90 in a 55MPH zone.) You and I are concerned about our gas mileage while a noticeable minority of drivers couldn't care less about it.
Butch

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