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HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help!

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Clark Zellmer

06-03-2001 12:06:26




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Went to painting with a HVLP today, my first try. Dealer bought enamel paint thined 8:1 with mineral spirits. Added a hardener at 16:1 from local farm supply store. Pressure 10 psi. Result on parts were disasterous. Lots of orange peel and runs on the first part. Applied less paint to the next parts. Result, lot more orange peel and some runs. The paint is not coming out in the fine mist I planned on. It seems to come out somewhat chunky(large and small drops.) Any suggestions.

Clark

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sammy the RED

06-05-2001 16:13:23




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 Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 12:06:26  
Where is the 10 psi measured at ?
10 psi is VERY low psi to paint with.



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VaTom

06-05-2001 19:04:19




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 Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to sammy the RED, 06-05-2001 16:13:23  
One thing should be very clear, the lowest pressure that you can get atomization is going to give the least bounce-back and the most productive spraying. 10 PSI is no problem with my turbine (at the gun). When I used a standard spray gun that the manufacturer indicated I should use 40-50 PSI, I consistently did great with 25-30 PSI (at the gun). It's a combination of viscosity and hardware.

The whole point of HVLP is to give such low pressure that bounce-back (often confused with "over-spray") is minimized. I've been told by friends that I'll never get enough increased efficiency to recoup the HVLP cost. That's not the point. Creating a substantially better environment for me to work in, is. Get the product on the work with a satisfactory film in the most efficient manner. If you're looking for maximum product out of the nozzle, go airless.

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sammy the RED

06-05-2001 23:17:50




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 Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to VaTom, 06-05-2001 19:04:19  
I belive studies have shown a savings in material cost of up to 30% with HVLP. Various models of HVLP guns will have differant air requirements to achieve 10 psi at the air cap. If he is measuring 10 psi at the gun to get 10 psi at the air cap, I dont think it will happen. The following is from the SATA site.

HVLP Low Pressure Technology:

modern paint spraying method with lower air cap pressure dynamic inlet pressure max. 3 bars - Atomization pressure max. 0.7 bar Reduced overspray and paint bounce-back compared to conventional paint spraying up to 30 % material savings, excellent finish no turbines necessary due to built-in air converter unlimited fields of application for all possible paint jobs.

In order to obtain an excellent atomization despite the reduced air cap pressure, a large air volume is indispensable. It may be up to 40 % above the air consumption of comparable high pressure guns. Cost for this additional air consumption, at a difference of 120 l/min and with a partial paint job having a material consumption of 1 kg paint, amounts to 0.03 DM. However, this additional cost must be seen parallel to considerably increased material savings (0.60 DM for each transfer efficiency increase by 1 %; 10 - 30 % are common). Since the transfer efficiency of HVLP spray guns is in general significantly higher than that achieved with spray guns featuring a higher air cap pressure (no matter if they are called high pressure guns, conventional, compliant, T.E.C. or Trans-Tech) there is no doubt about the advantages of HVLP technology, due to the mere technical facts. Taking into consideration the paint savings potential, the cost for additional air consumption becomes fully irrelevant.

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VaTom

06-06-2001 05:59:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to sammy the RED, 06-05-2001 23:17:50  
Hi Sammy,
Interesting site but stay away from their store if you don't want to get trapped there. Took me awhile before I realized your source wasn't the U.S. site. Those guns eat 12-15 cfm and want around 40psi at the gun. Pretty interesting getting that much air from a small hose. My point about cost was not for the air generation, but hardware cost, including air source. I know of one major stringed instrument manufacturer who decided against HVLP due to insufficient material/cost savings. Apparently their emissions aren't a problem. If you amortize your hardware costs, payback never happens for us small volume users. Gotta also be a little skeptical of manufacturers' claims, especially when they tell you that you don't need a product that is unavailable from them. But I sure like using HVLP.

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sammy the RED

06-06-2001 07:39:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to VaTom, 06-06-2001 05:59:41  
I have two Sata guns. Both HVLP. Work fine for me.

I would still like to know where he is measuring his 10 psi at.



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Clark Zellmer

06-06-2001 21:18:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to sammy the RED, 06-06-2001 07:39:02  
The 10 psi was at the regulator on the gun handle. The instructions say 15 to 40psi. At 40 psi where I started, too much paint came out. I got runs instantly and it was very "chunky". I lowered it more and more to get less paint so the runs would stop. At least at 10 psi the paint flow rate was less. It still was "chunky" though.

I did buy the correct thinner now and the parts have been sanded smooth. I am concerned that the paint was not real hard after 4 days. How long does enamel paint take to get hard? I don't want to paint over my mistake just to find the paint I did apply never hardens up.

Clark

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VaTom

06-07-2001 05:45:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-06-2001 21:18:24  
Hey Clark,
Sounds like you originally made the wrong adjustment. You needed the pressure to get atomization. Far as I know, only turbine systems will operate at that low a pressure. You needed to reduce the flow of product-a different adjustment, usually a nut just above your palm when you grab the gun. It keeps the trigger from moving so far and reduces product flow. Now you have an unknown base. If it doesn't get hard you have a problem. Got a sandblaster? Harbor Freight's cheapie is what I use. If solvents are trapped under a film there's a possibility you'll never get satisfactory results. Without removing the faulty layer, that is.

I once ran into that with an automotive lacquer that an employer insisted was the best product ever. Turns out it didn't work for wood. Solvent got trapped and the film never set up properly. Took a mfg. co. chemist to get it cleared up. And the idiots I was working for had done this on 23 $400,000+ houses. At least they let me buy the correct reducer, that we changed, depending on time of year, to adjust the speed. Good luck.

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Clark Zellmer

06-09-2001 15:10:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to VaTom, 06-07-2001 05:45:58  
Success today. Went up to 40 psi and down on paint flow. Still some minor orange peel, but not much more than I get with spary cans. Much better than before. I did thin the paint with the proper IH thinner though at 8:1. As far as the sandblaster, I bought the harbor feight $299 on sale for $219. Love it. I wanted to avoid using it though since the panels were already blasted once in it. Thanks for the advice

clark

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VaTom

06-09-2001 15:52:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-09-2001 15:10:43  
Great news Clark! Now experiment to see how low you can set the pressure and still get atomization. It'll be directly proportional to your viscosity. You're on the way to getting the most out of your gun. I forgot to mention a small trick. Use lacquer thinner (generic) to clean up any problems. It'll even soften most hard paints. It's a fast solvent that will evaporate and get out of your way. I use lacquer thinner as the last solvent in cleaning my guns and leave the nozzle sitting in it.

Now your orange peel is mostly dependent on the type of paint and its self-leveling ability. You know you need to have the coat "wet", right? Dry spots will give you a less even coating. Gotta develop that touch. Have at it... and have fun.

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KC

06-04-2001 19:47:45




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 Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 12:06:26  
I bought a $100 Craftsman HVLP, tried it once, hated it, put it back in the box. I'll get rid of it for halve price if anybody interested!



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VaTom

06-03-2001 13:11:58




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 Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 12:06:26  
Hi Clark,
You didn't say what HVLP. Gun or whole turbine setup? Usually lack of atomization is due to either too thick a product or not enough pressure in the pot. I assume you've already played with the nozzle adjustments. My turbine gun has three: product volume, spray pattern, and size of pattern. I also adjust the amount of airflow into my pot. Is there no manufacturer's manual? Runs are too much product for the speed of your reducer. Faster reducers allow faster product build. We're assuming compatability of your paint, hardener, and reducer. Do you know?

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Clark Zellmer

06-03-2001 20:03:46




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 Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to VaTom, 06-03-2001 13:11:58  
It is a HVLP Gun with gravity feed. Gun documentation (Harbor Freight import) is sketchy at best. "Trouble shooting: If gun does not operate, replace parts" sort of manual. The paint is Case IH Iron Guard Enamel which is oil based, but it does say "Acrylic Modified" which makes me wonder. It says it is to reduce drying time. The thinner was regular Mineral Spirits. The hardener is "Majic Catalyst Hardener" for oil based paints. So as you can see, I cannot guarantee they are compatible other than at a generic "oil based level" They seemed to mix well and stay mixed. The dry product seems to be very tough and durable. I expected it to come out of the gun in a light mist that would take 2 or 3 coats to cover like a spray can. Even with using the three gun adjustments, the best I could get was a mix of small, medium, and gigantic droplets. I experimented quite a while with the gun adjustments before hitting the parts. Trying to get the gigantic droplets to "wet out" and spread flat is what caused the runs (too much paint). The orange peel is the largest I've ever seen. Definitely a sand and redo. My best guess is that the 8:1 paint to thinner was still too thick. You may be correct however with the compatibility issue. Paint can says use only "Case IH thinner". I'll hit the dealer tomorrow, but I'd put money on it being mineral spirits.

Clark

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Jon

06-04-2001 12:35:26




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 Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 20:03:46  
I think you have found your problem, the mineral spirits. I noticed that if I tried to clean my gun(2150 CaseIH paint) with mineral spirits, it wouldn't even touch the paint. Put in some CaseIH thinner and it cleaned it up in no time. So I'm guessin that the mineral spirits and paint aren't mixing well.



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Bill Gaines Mi

06-03-2001 20:22:55




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 Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 20:03:46  
Hi; I too painted my tractor today, my 706. last nite i tryed spraying it with a 8 to 1 mix. [Ih iron guard] got gobs and lots of running paint. ran at about 10 psi . today I tryed straight out of can { no thinner } and at 40 psi and I have got a butiful , shinny finish . no runs and no orange peel . it worked for me, hopefully it will work for you . good luck. Bill



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Clark Zellmer

06-03-2001 20:31:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Bill Gaines Mi, 06-03-2001 20:22:55  
I'll try it tomorrow with the remaining two rims. If it works, I'll go back to the other parts (after a good sanding of course.) I don't mind a little orange peel, but when it looks like the moon closeup, I draw the line. Thanks

Clark



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Bill ,Gaines Mi

06-04-2001 21:01:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-03-2001 20:31:13  
Clark; Hi well did you try just paint and 40 psi? let me know if it worked .Bill



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Clark Zellmer

06-05-2001 18:33:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Bill ,Gaines Mi, 06-04-2001 21:01:34  
I need to wait till it stops raining and humidity drops below 90%. I'm hoping that will be before winter sets in. Most likely it will be Saturday. I'll let you know.



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Jerry B

06-06-2001 19:14:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Clark Zellmer, 06-05-2001 18:33:47  
Clark,
Throw that mineral spirits away.
Use a good grade of Acrylic Enamel reducer and hardner. Even cheap generic additives would be better than mineral spirits. Dupont has about the best paint additives on the market.

Watched a guy paint a pickup truck once and he used Coleman latern fuel as a reducer!!!! "Best @$%^*^ paint thinner you can get" he said with a smile. Then later he let out another oath as he watched his paint shrivel up.

I just shook my head and walked off.

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Clark Zellmer

06-09-2001 15:15:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HVLP Runny paint and Orange Peel Help! in reply to Jerry B, 06-06-2001 19:14:04  
Success today. Went up to 40 psi and down on paint flow. Still some minor orange peel, but not much more than I get with spary cans. Much much better than before. I did thin the paint with the proper IH thinner though at 8:1. The mineral spirits could not compare to the proper thinner. I should have known when I was trying to clean the gun after the first time and the mineral spirits would not wash away the excess paint. I just wish the damn cottonwood trees weren't releasing their cotton this weekend. One big "ball" landed in the wet paint!

Thanks all
Clark

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