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Ready mix vs. mix your own

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tractormarkb

06-14-2007 06:15:22




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I have to make 2- 42" by 18" Piers for a Mobile home. What is cheaper delivered ready Mix or mixmyself Concrete? Should I put rocks or broken Bricks/Concrete Blocks in to lesson the amount of concrete I need? Should I put Rebar in the Piers, if so How shoud I run the Rebar? Thanks.




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big fred

06-15-2007 12:13:11




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
For rebar, check your local building codes. Even if you're in a rural area and not required to build per code or get a permit, the codes will tell you what works. Around here, I would never consider pouring anything that size without rebar. First earthquake would bust it in two. Where I grew up, I would also use rebar, first winter's frost heave would break it in two.



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Billy NY

06-15-2007 07:16:00




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Not sure what your depth is for those, would need the missing dimension to calculate the quantity, but at 1'-6" x 1'-6" x 3'-6" depth, 1.5 x 1.5 = 7.87 cu. ft./27 cu.ft. per cu.yd. = 0.29 cu.yd. each pier x 20 piers = 5.83 cubic yards, if I am correct. I cacl'd it that way as it would appear that the 3'-6" (42") would be the depth, and 1'-6" (18") would be the footprint, resembling a pier, one that would pass below a frost line in some areas. Only other configuration I can see based on your dimensions would be 3'-6" x 3'-6" x 1'-6" depth = 18.3 cu ft./ 27 cu. ft. per cu. yd. = .68 cu. yd. each pier x 20 piers = 13.6 cu. yds

Whatever the shape of this pier, similar to the dimensions you gave, x the 20 piers you need, does seem to be a lot of material to mix by hand.

Being that each pier is under a cubic yard, yeah, you could do one at time, with a mixer you should be able to make enough to fill 1 form quickly enough. When mixing by hand, problem is, it may take too long to make enough material to pour at one time, I don't like cold joints(where previously poured material starts to set up and you are still pouring fresh material on top of that). Those piers are small enough to not worry about that I would think, say oppposed to doing a wall by hand. The other thing, is depending on which way you do it by hand, is the consistency of the mix, yes you can get all the seperate materials, portland cement, sand for fine aggregate, stone for coarse aggregate and follow a mix design, or you can buy from a reputable masonry supply house a good quality bagged gravel(concrete)mix deigned and tested for a certain strenght, ( don't add too much water, keep your water to cementitious material ratio the same) I'm not a big fan of what the big box retail stores carry, there are masonry suppliers who carry a better product in a bag. Not sure what compressive strength is required and if anyone needs to sign off on these piers prior to placing the mobile home, if so, best to make sure you achieve the strength needed, and as ridiculous as it sounds, you can take 4 test cylinders of one mix if you buy ready mix, to substantiate the strength when sent to a test lab for breaking. If you mix by hand you would need to make at least 1 test cylinder for every batch made, again..... this may not even be an issue for this application, but anytime it does have to be certified, tough to beat ready mix, if it fails, the supplier may be liable, not you, + all that wasted labor.


Not sure if these are to be excavated formed and poured or just trench poured (no forms), below grade, but I can tell you, if you want to get it done quickly, you should have enough to make an order without the short load charges. If the quantity is short, make a slab for a patio or think of something that you could make out of concrete, might help to avoid those extra short load costs, you already need the material anyway, and add 1/2 yard extra over, after a careful estimate of the actual material needed, won't be a short load order and you have a little extra, running short on a pour sucks to say it bluntly.

Rebar configurations for piers are usually vertical bars, wrapped with horizontal bars, kind of like a cage, but for these, a couple of vertical bars, maybe 2-4 of those per pier with horizontals tied to them, placed equi-distant apart, like a ladder, would be as far as I would go, and just vertical or horizontal alone in each one would suffice to make it simple, I doubt the loading on these will be anything to be concerned about, if it is just a mobile home, sounds more like ballast for wind loading, and the mobile home is being fastened to them for both a foundation and a tie-back, guessing on that.

If a truck has access, it would make ready mix an easy way to do this, yeah maybe it will cost you more, but if you were to mix all of that by hand, you would need a large capacity mixer, like what a commercial masonry contractor would use, and have the pre-mixed bagged concrete ( gravel mix) delivered on skids placed near the mixer, need a buggy to haul and pour into the forms or holes, use seperate materials like portland, sand stone etc. you will handle every bit of the material once with a shovel to mix it and again to place it. You may save some money on materials, but it will be labor intense to mix same.

If you are subject to any specifications or codes by a municipality, if you toss rocks, broken brick in there etc., the pier most likely would not be accepted if seen by an inspector, yes you can bury what you want in there and it would probably not be an issue for a mobile home pier, but each pier would be different, and if under a much more substantial load, would compress to failure at different strengths if tested to failure, yeah old timers did it in barn foundations and slabs, many are still around, each to their own on that, I don't like the practice for any foundation or pier to be honest, no consistency, and it could easily violate a mix design in my humble opinion.

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02

06-15-2007 13:30:34




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Billy NY, 06-15-2007 07:16:00  
Premixed bagged concrete for this large amount?Thats like 2/3 cu. ft. per bag at $5.00 or more each is like over $200.00 per yd. and you still have to mix it? That's poor advice!



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Billy NY

06-15-2007 16:33:46




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to 02, 06-15-2007 13:30:34  
Poor advice what, I don't get it, either get it close to minimum load, and pour the darned stuff from a truck at whatever it costs locally per yard with a short load charge and be done with it or buy bags and mix it, do the math and do what works best for you, labor and finance wise, anything can be done, it's up to the person doing it, personally, mixing that much material by hand is crazy, not sure what the costs are for good bagged mix, but if someone wants to do it by hand, for a structural component I'd advise against mixing seperate materials, that's one persons opinion, better to use a pre-mixed material if you have to mix it by hand, costs are what they are, you do whats best after checking the options, which mind you, are abundantly clear for something like this, just trying to help bud, that is all and I'd think the advice was as good as any.

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02

06-15-2007 17:49:17




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Billy NY, 06-15-2007 16:33:46  
Yeah,O.k. youre right your advice is as good as any ,not meaning as anything personal just can't understand using premix for anything needing more than 5 or 6 bags since ths stuff is pricey. I 'm just an old fashioned work horse,don't mind working to save some.



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Billy NY

06-15-2007 19:04:18




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to 02, 06-15-2007 17:49:17  
I hear ya, that's how you get ahead of the game, by doing exactly that, being creative, avoiding contractors and all the other things to keep costs down where it makes sense, but for something like this, in my humble opinion, the labor and double material handling, is hard to justify, even if you are saving some dollars, best to save it other places on a job and apply those funds to make things like this task easier.

I recently did 20 piers quite similar to the ones described here, I cannot imagine mixing the material by hand. I pre-casted them to set with a Cat 420 hoe, would have been nice to have them set to pour in place, but the location was not accessible anyway, and the material was free, they did an 90 yard pour for a high voltage powerline tower base, foreman gave me short notice about the material overage, well I put together those forms in a hurry, no way I was going to see a 3/4 to full truck load of 5000 PSI get sent back, the end product came out nice and they were easy to set later on.

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02

06-16-2007 00:30:02




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Billy NY, 06-15-2007 19:04:18  
Way to go on the concrete fever!



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02

06-14-2007 23:45:26




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
I save lots of money mixing concrete myself,around here with all the extra charges and taxes a yard of concrete is about $160.00 if you buy a whole truckload. A yard of homemade concret for footings I would mix a four bag to the yard mix. That is five gravel one cement.This is approx a 2000 lb. per sg. in.mix.At five bags to the yard is FOUR shovels naavy jack to one cement.This is a 2500 lb. mix.There are TEN shovels cement in a bag. Another consideration is the type of building site.Since you only get 10 min. per yard unloading time free ($1.25 a MINUTE thereafter) a pump truck is necessary at another large cost AND another extra half yard to prime the pump truck. Homemade concrete you don't have to do it all in one day and yes you can use rocks in the concrete just leave at least two inches of concrete between and also make the cocrete a little stronger if doing this.

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Pooh Bear

06-14-2007 18:08:21




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Around here as long as you need the 4cy minimum order you come out ahead using ready mix. Cement is about $11/bag and it takes at least 6 bags to make a yard of concrete. Then sand and gravel and all the labor of mixing it. Even more labor if you don't have a mixer. For the same cost I would rather avoid all the work and just have it delivered for $75 per cubic yard.

Pooh Bear



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rodgernbama

06-14-2007 15:33:43




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Go with the ready-mix. Around here that would be about $600.00 worth of concrete.I would also put rebar in them.



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old art

06-14-2007 15:27:31




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
some thing dosent sound correct go back and check with the people who is selling the moble home and the county/village/or whom you need for inspection they will help you do it correct. it is worth the effort.
i helped on one we set it on a concreat pad with tie down anchor it then they stached concreat blocks to support the unit(county rules here)



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TimV

06-14-2007 13:01:41




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Tractorbmark: Ready-mix is definitely the way to go, as the difference in cost will be negligible, and the difference in labor will be considerable. This assumes you have everything ready to go when the truck pulls up. Assuming your piers are 18" x 18" x 42" deep, you have about 6 yards of concrete to pour. Pick the brains of the ready-mix people as to what the usual reinforcement and mix are in your area as things like soil type and locally available aggregate can play a part in what works best.

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Matt from CT

06-14-2007 11:59:50




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
That quantity, in my area, is within what a couple local "Mobile Mixers" will do -- if I recall one of their radio ads right, they do up to 5 yards.

You provide the water, they have a large mixer on a truck and mix the quantity needed on site.



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Jimmy King

06-14-2007 11:23:07




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
You will never regret using reddy mix.



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Stan in Oly, WA

06-14-2007 10:30:48




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Hi tractormarkb,

As previously noted, there is little or no savings in mixing your own concrete vs having ready mix delivered---even if you don't put a dollar value on your time. What you gain by mixing it yourself is control of the situation. Just about every ready mix driver I've ever dealt with has been patient and helpful---I've even seen drivers help screed a slab when the situation was threatening to get out of hand---but they've got a truckload of concrete that you have to pay for whether it goes into your forms, onto the ground, or back to the yard to make barriers out of.

Even if your location is ideal for the truck to get to every hole in the ground without you having to scramble around with a wheelbarrow, you're not going to have any time to attend to any individual pier until they're all poured. While there probably isn't anything made of concrete that needs less attention than a big block in the ground, still it's nice to have a chance to tamp the mud a little as it goes in, adjust steel that gets knocked out of place, etc.

4.6 yards of concrete would be an enormous amount to mix in a day. It's 23 94# bags of cement, for one thing. A number of times I've had everything arranged as near to ideal as I could make it, worked myself to exhaustion, and never came near to mixing that much. That was alone, though. Two good workers can mix considerably more than twice as much as someone working alone.

One last thing to know: You can never have too many helpers involved in a concrete pour.

All the best, Stan

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Jimmy King

06-14-2007 11:21:38




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 06-14-2007 10:30:48  
A 94 lb sack of cement is the heavest 94 lbs I have ever picked up and a 50 lb box of welding Rod is the heavest 50 lbs I have ever picked up.



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Stan in Oly, WA

06-14-2007 12:44:41




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Jimmy King, 06-14-2007 11:21:38  
Amen and amen (although the bag of cement seems to weigh considerably more than twice as much as a 50# can of welding rod.)

Stan



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jml755

06-14-2007 13:08:51




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 06-14-2007 12:44:41  
94 lbs! LOL, brings back memories:
When I worked road construction in college (35+ yrs ago), I used to flip those bags up and spin them as they emptied into the mixer in between running a 90 lb jackhammer.(ALL DAY LONG, for $5.65/hr, BIG money in those days.) Next time I did it, (about 10 yrs ago) I remember standing on the bed of my pickup prepared to show off for everyone on HOW IT'S DONE! Darn near threw my back out on the 1st one! A lot of Ben-Gay that nite! Anyway, it's still fun to mix your own for a small job, now and then, but you can't beat ready-mix for the convenience and consistency.

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jml755

06-14-2007 07:53:23




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
If I've used my calculator correctly, 20-18"x42" piers would be about 4.5 cubic yds. That's a lot of concrete to mix by hand, unless you're doing them a few at a time. Also depends on what you mean "mix by hand". You could buy the pre-mixed bags and do it in a wheelbarrow, which would be crazy for that amount, or you could rent a mixer, buy the bags of Portland cement, get the 60-40 sand-gravel mix delivered, etc. I've done this for footings and slab for an addition over 10 years ago. A decent days work. I just priced it out recently for a pole barn rat-wall and was surprised that it was cheaper to have it truck delivered. I wouldn't put junk in the holes. It will just get in the way of the pour and create voids. As for the rebar, I'd put 4 running vertically, tied together, down 36" and 6" from the top, 3-4" from the sides. Depends on the anchors you're going to use also. (j-hooks, etc). Of course, I'm not a strucural engineer, so someone will probably answer with a more "correct" approach. good luck.

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135 Fan

06-14-2007 07:40:02




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Rebar always helps in concrete. Unless you know a lot about concrete you're better off to get ready mix delivered. There are many different types of concrete and the supplier can help choose the best for the application. If concrete is mixed wrong or too wet it won't be as strong as it should be. Dave



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cj3b_jeep

06-14-2007 07:33:47




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
That's about 100 yards of concrete, around here that would cost you about $10,000 from a ready mix company. Would not even want to think about mixing all those bags. Could you look into digging a footer and having a block wall built like a basement but shorter? Might be a bunch cheaper. Figure you'l pay $1.25 for block, and another $1.25 to lay them.



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swms301

06-14-2007 07:11:19




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
I would go with ready mix if available. Assuming the pier are 18" diameter you have almost 5 cy of concrete. That's a lot of bags to mix. Now if you have lots of time and can do them at your leisure you could try the bag mix. I would vote against using rubble etc for filler just because of the possible adverse affect on strength and durability. JMO



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tractormarkb

06-14-2007 06:17:53




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 Re: Ready mix vs. mix your own in reply to tractormarkb, 06-14-2007 06:15:22  
Im sorry, I have to make 20 Piers. Thanks



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