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Cutting torch kit

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Steve in CT

05-24-2001 10:09:03




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I'm looking at Northern Tools Generico torch and tank kit with a 20# O2 tank and a 10# acetylene tank and I have a question: how often will I be running back to get the tanks re-filled if I'm doing some cutting of 3/8-1/2 mild steel and maybe heating up stuck nuts?? I know I won't use it enough to lease the tanks. I appreciate any feedback and Happy Memorial Day!




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Mark Kw

05-27-2001 06:12:59




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
A couple things on this one.

First, most all Generico stuff is interchangeable with Victor, from tips to valve seats and regulator diaphrams. I've been using Generico regulators for about 7 or 8 years now on a daily basis with no problems yet.

I don't like acetylene very much and prefer to use LP for 99% of everything I do. If you are wanting to use LP, you need to know a few things. First, you must use type "T" hoses with LP. The normal hoses used with acetylene will become soft and blow out after time exposure to LP gas. Anchor brand hoses are cheap and to be honest with you, they are the best I have ever used, remaining pliable in extreme cold is their biggest plus for me.

Next, you need a torch specifically designed for use with LP or it will not work properly. The Harris type "F" is designed for use only with LP/Mapp gas and is the only one I have found that will mix the LP/O2 to give a proper burn at the tip. One of these will run you about $140 with a #2 cutting tip. The best part of the Harris design is that the rose budd tips screw right onto the cutting torch tip threads so there is no changing handles.

Using LP takes some getting used to because setting the flame for different uses is slightly different from that of acet. For cutting, you need to use an oxidizing flame (very short light blue pre heat cone). LP cuts much faster, thicker and cleaner than acet once you have the proper torch/tip combo and get the feel of how to set it. One of the biggest plus sides to using LP is that you don't get the popping and blow backs when cutting dirty/rusty steel like acet does.

LP does require slightly more O2 than does acet but the end result is that you get much more cutting power for the same amount of O2 as with acet. fuel gas. LP is also much safer too. Acet can self ignite when in gas form in the hoses/regulator if the gas pressure gets over 21 psi, LP will not even if the line gets full bottle pressure because of a regulator failure or operator error.

The myth that LP takes longer to pre heat or start cutting comes from those people who either used the wrong torch or the wrong flame setting. Too much gas at the tip will cause you to have a cold pre heat flame. Too much O2 will cause also cause a cold flame and make the cutting very slow and sloppy. In most cases of guys complaining about LP not being as good as acet come from them trying to use equipment that is not design for LP use. The Victor and Smith adapter tips for use with LP on a torch handle designed for use with acet will not produce a proper LP/O2 mix and the flame and preformance will suffer greatly. Properly set, I can hold a cut with LP on my Harris torch 2" to 6" from the work piece where with acet, you will loose the cut when the tip gets 1/4" or more from the work piece.

The kurf of the cut from LP is also much easier to clean especially when cutting rusty steel. In most cases, I can cut heavy thick rusted steel with LP and do all the cleaning easily an quickly with a chipping hammer. Grinding is rarely ever required even if MIG welding the steel with solid wire. When done properly, the cuts from LP are confuced with those made by plasma cutters.

For all the heavy duty cutting I do, I have yet to need an LP tip bigger than #2 and as a matter of fact, I don't even own any other size tips for it except for the rose buds. Adjusting the O2 pressure will control the thickness of the steel you cut while maintaining the same pre heat flame size and setting. I have made cuts on steel 10" thick that were clean and smooth with a standard #2 cutting tip but usung 80 to 90 psi of O2 pressure. Yes, you do use more O2 but you are not using any more fuel gas for the heavier cutting as you need to do with acet. You save time because you don't need to constantly change tip sizes for changing material thicknesses. I rarely change O2 pressure settings because the cut valve on the Harris torches allows you to fleather the O2 cutting pressure at the handle. This takes some practice but is a real time saver once mastered.

Now as for the tanks. A 20 pound LP tank will last for about 20-30 of the biggest O2 tanks known as the 292 size (the ones that are 10" in diameter and stand 5' high). A 3 or 5 pound LP tank is sufficient for any DIY'er uses unless you are running a large rose bud tip for long periods of time. You can buy the medium sized O2 tanks from most any gas supplier for about $150. What you need to ask BEFORE you buy: 1- will they exchange the empty for a full one or only fill your tank? 2- If they will only fill your tank, how long is the turn around time (time you wait to get the tank back)? 3- Are they going to charge you for the hydro test on the tank when it comes due (most run about $35)? Just FYI, most gas suppliers will exchange your tank if purchased from them and not charge for hydro testing and will offer you a transfer or buy back option if you move from their service area because some suppliers will confiscate tanks that are not branded with their name while other don't care or will do a dealer swap. You don't want to shell out $150 for a tank, move away from the area only to have to purchase another tank at the new location.

Some words of advice. Don't slack on price and size of the equipment. Get yourself a 16" Harris torch, the big heavy duty two stage Generico regulators, Anchor brand type "T" 50' twin hoses in 1/4" ID diameter and either Harris, Goss or NTT LP tips. If you decide to go with acetylene, get the heavy duty two stage regulators, 1/4" ID twin hoses and the Generico acet torches are fine with either Generico or Victor tips. Don't limit youself to smaller hoses or a light duty torch because you will regret it down the road. The cost difference between going heavy duty and light duty for the entire set-up will be less than $100 and well worth the extra start up cost when you do not become limited by the size of the equipment.

As for me, the only things I use acet for is flame spray build-up using powdered metals and some very special cast iron welding where I need to add carbon in order to get a proper weld process. I brass and silver braze, solder and cut with the same #2 cutting tip. It takes time to get used to it and learning how to set the flame and gas pressures to get the tip to do what you want but once the learning curve is over, you save more time than you can imagine and don't need to have pile of specialized equipment to get the same type and amount of work done. If you have any specific questions, feel free to email me directly.

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Dave Wright

03-17-2006 19:27:07




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 Re: Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Mark Kw, 05-27-2001 06:12:59  
I started work at a sign shop and they have Lp gas torch and track torch.I"m having a heck of a time setting the right gas to oxy. Other places I worked had acedline. Nobody else will even try. I have all the tip I need. I have to go from 1/4 inch plate to 1 inch. Please offer some help on the regulator settings and tip from plate distance. It will most deffinatly be apreciated.



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JEB

05-28-2001 15:52:19




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 Re: Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Mark Kw, 05-27-2001 06:12:59  
Mark,
Best info I've ever seen on using LP gas.
If using the proper equipment as you suggest, could you advise of the LP and O2 settings for a varity of steel thicknesses?

Thanks in advance
John



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wrenchman

05-26-2001 02:11:20




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
try to stick with Victor or Harris brand for your torch setup.they are the major brands and tips and parts are easy to get.i'm not sure about generco.you can either buy or lease tanks,its up to you.the tanks you mentioned are small.i had to buy a set of bigger tanks to get any real cutting time.started with an offbrand outfit.now have victor setup.would buy victor if i had to do again(less hassle).my 1&1/2cents(taxes you know).

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Richard

05-25-2001 07:42:12




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
Check before you buy. A few years ago I bought a complete set (Victor Journeyman & Bottles). I could not get my bottles filled anywhere. It wasn't because they're defective or odd, but all the welding supply stores here have a conspiracy going! I was pretty hot then But now I completely understand why. They will only fill bottles which came from them. They explained the reasons were liability and certifications. They keep track of the Serial Numbers on the bottles and keep records and if they were swapping bottles with everyone they would not be able to do this. The only way around it is to buy new bottles, or buy used ones from the people your going to use, or simply lease them. I currently pay something like 3.00 a bottle a month. I need to check on a annual charge maybe it will be cheaper.

This may not be the same in your area so check around first.

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Greg

05-25-2001 10:00:58




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 Re: Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Richard, 05-25-2001 07:42:12  
One of our local chain dealers here has placed their rental tanks and the blank banded owner tanks into the system in the same pool and says they are one and the same, yes this creates a problem as no other dealer will exchange the tank at up to around $15.00 less money, the next time a blank tank shows up when I need a refill it will be mine. Also they seem to have three different prices on things, I'll doubt if they will ever wise up to the fact that UPS delivers to the door and a lot of supplies are picked up when traveling. Not meaning to vent to much ;>} service and time are money.

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Ford Man

05-24-2001 18:19:21




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
Steve,
You may want to look into leasing your tanks if you have a local welding supply house .

The company I work for has a welding supply division and they lease tanks for a reasonable rate per year . It costs more in the long run , but you have a lot less up front cost . When your tank is empty , you just exchange for a full one and pay for the gas .

Good Luck,
Ford Man



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MarkB

05-24-2001 15:41:38




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
If you are going to do any serious heating or cutting, those tanks are too small. Rule of thumb is that you should never draw down your acetylene tank by more than 1/5 of its capacity per hour. A rosebud or medium size cutting tip will probably exceed that.

If you possibly can, buy your tanks outright from your local welding gas supplier. After all, you'll have to go to him to get your gas, anyway. Most shops will sell you the tanks if they're 125 cu. ft. or smaller. You're right, you don't want to lease them.

I suggest going with at least 60 cu. ft. acetylene and 80 cu ft. O2.

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Branden

05-24-2001 11:40:48




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
Hello Steve,
My suggestion, don't buy the empty tanks. Go to your local supplier and buy their small set or whatever size is in your price range. I purchased the largest sizes available for a little over $300. They take care of any tank problems, because refills are on an exchange type basis, but you still own a set of tanks.

Branden



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Franz

05-24-2001 10:41:17




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 Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Steve in CT, 05-24-2001 10:09:03  
Before you buy it, make dam sure there is a local welding supplier who will fill it. Also find out how much of a premium he's gonna charge you to fill it. Then add in the cost of recertification of the tanks every 10 years.
Also include the cost of 2 trips to and from the supplier every time you need a refill, he sure ain't gonna drop everything to fill your tank.
Long and short of it, unless you got a real need to own a mini setup, go with a real setup from a local welding supplier who will support your equipment, and answer your questions.

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paul

05-24-2001 15:40:23




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 Re: Re: Cutting torch kit in reply to Franz, 05-24-2001 10:41:17  
That sounds like good advise for the guy to consider.

Also, you could rent/own a larger O tank, & run with Propane instead of the A. This gives a flame that doesn't cut quite as deep (if you need that) and uses slightly more O, but on the other hand 20# propane tanks are easy to fill anywhere, is cheaper, and sounds like it will fill your needs? You can actually be a bit 'neater' with propane, cleaner cut, brazes thinner metals. Need a different tip to run propane, but works well for me. Less muss & fuss with only the one specialty tank.

--->Paul

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