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welding a plow share question...

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Crispin

05-09-2007 07:59:57




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I'm helping a friend repair a broken antique plow share. It says IH 0-640 "CHILLED" on it. After a little research, it looks like this is white cast iron.
Can anyone suggest a rod, temp and polarity for arc welding this piece. I am willing to attempt gas welding it although I don't have much experience with gas beyond a little brazing and lots of cutting.
Thanks in advance, C.




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Dardan

05-11-2007 22:05:50




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
Bought 3 'chilled iron' shins for an AC plow years ago. Bolted 1st one on and if cracked before I could even tighten it up. Welded in place with a high nickel stick and a buzz box with no preheat, got lucky. Whittled two out of 3 / 8 hi tensil plate and returned the new chilled iron ones. The welded one and the two homemade ones are still in service and working well.



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Crispin

05-10-2007 07:44:53




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
Thanks guys.. george md offered pointers on gas welding this thing which I would like to learn more about. Never did much welding with the torch, only brazing and cutting. This plow is for go not show, so the owner won't mind the looks (unless you guys tell us it's worth $26,000 on ebay). If he's in a hurry, I will probably stick weld it. Otherwise, I think I might try the gas. I think with a flame, you might get around some of those heat/expansion issues since the whole part will be hot while you're welding... then do the slow cool thing. Thanks, C.

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Stan in Oly, WA

05-10-2007 08:28:22




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-10-2007 07:44:53  
Hi Crispin,

If the plowshare is not for show why don't you just braze it? It should be strong enough, it's the preferred method for cast iron because it avoids all the problems involved in welding, and it's a process you're already familiar with.

All the best, Stan



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george md

05-10-2007 09:34:01




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-10-2007 08:28:22  
Stan,

I think you should do your homework, as o/a is the prefered method for cast iron with brazing being the second choice and arc weld being the far distant worst choice. I started out some 40+ years ago using nickel
and other arc rods and soon found that there are
much better ways to repair cast iron. There is also a link below , should be read by anyone trying to weld cast iron.

george

third party image

Showing back of the broken heater box

it is repairable

third party image

assembled box , back side

repaired

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Howard H.

05-10-2007 15:32:44




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to george md, 05-10-2007 09:34:01  

Hey George!

Where did you get those pictures of the manifold??

Someone posted a link to a cast iron repair website some time ago which had some pics very similar to yours. I've been looking for that website ever since! I can't find the conversation on the discussion forum either.

I was always the "welder" on the farm and am very interested in learning more about cast iron repair.

I don't seem to find the pics you show on the website link you provided...

I know I've tried to repair some engine blocks before with arc/nickel rod and used every trick I could find on making it work and didn't really have very good results...

Thanks for any more information,
Howard

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george md

05-10-2007 17:02:15




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Howard H., 05-10-2007 15:32:44  
Howard, That is a manifold for a MM JTU that I repaired several years ago, it did take a bit of work. Below is a link to many pictures of repair ,
some cast iron and some other things . I do a lot
of cast iron welding .

The web site link that posted before was for
reading , there are about 4 pages of information
of cast iron repair. Read it , it is better than
any text book that you will ever read on cast
iron repair. If that had been available when I
started welding cast ,I would have saved me a
whole lot of learning by trial and error. The
fellow that wrote that article does cast repair
and is not trying to sell a miracle welding
rod that is questionable at best.

george

third party image

Intake runners installed ,
ready to box and ship back to owner

finished manifold

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Stan in Oly, WA

05-10-2007 11:59:10




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to george md, 05-10-2007 09:34:01  
Hi George,

Theoretically there's one best way to do anything. In actual practice several factors usually make the decision less clear. The skill necessary to do something the best way possible may not be possessed by the person who has to do it. Ditto for equipment, supplies, facilities, etc. The best way to do something under the existing circumstances may be quite different from the best way possible under optimum conditions.

Crispin stated that his experience is pretty much limited to O/A brazing and cutting. That being the case, he might very well obtain better results using the less absolutely preferred method that he is familiar with rather than the very best method that will necessarily involve some on the job training for him.

You state that you've been repairing cast iron for over 40 years. In my experience, people who have become expert at something almost always find it impossible to remember what it is like to not know anything about it. A hundred variables are so familiar to you that you automatically deal with whatever comes up without even having to consciously consider it. The novice has no such benefit.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't benefit by doing more homework on any issue that I'm not an expert on---like this one---but there's an element of common sense involved here that you aren't giving me credit for.

All the best, Stan

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projacktech

05-11-2007 08:17:22




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-10-2007 11:59:10  
Ive read many posts from george and seen pictures of his work. Anyone that can produce results like these has a right to say what is the "best" method. Can anyone of you do this kind of work? I know I cant. He is only trying to educate the less informed, that would be me, and I really appreciate his contributions. I think you guys should learn to see what is really being offered instead of jumping to conclusions. Im sure someone will reply to this statment with another "put them in their place" remark.

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george md

05-12-2007 09:29:27




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to projacktech, 05-11-2007 08:17:22  
projacktech,

Don't worry about them, they are just pouting
because it wasn't their idea. They have been indoctrinated by the welding supply that you can
weld anything with an arc and they took it hook line and sinker. I reality cast does not lend itself to arc welding very well ,corners and ears,
but not flat areas because there is no where for
contraction to take place. I do a lot of rework
from people that tried to do the job with arc. As far as spray powder , it is a great process
but being that the powder for cast is mostly
nickel it will give you the same cracking
problem that ni rod does.I have had spray weld
for 30 years , both hot and cold spray.Hot is
fusible ,cold is metalizing. For a fellow to say I don't have a torch and
act proud of that fact , it looks like he doesn't
even want to learn a better way.

george

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135 Fan

05-12-2007 09:22:35




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to projacktech, 05-11-2007 08:17:22  
We were not saying George doesn't do good work. Often times there can be more than one way to repair something and each is equally as good as the other if done right. If you want to get really technical. The best way to repair cast is to buy a new piece. Operator skill and the degree of difficulty can indicate what is the best method. Cost of repair would also have to be considered. The original post was regarding a plow share not repairing the Titanic. It isn't that critical. If it is something really critical then it is best to have someone like George repair it. I have repaired and built a lot of stuff by welding. TIG is considered the the most precision and strongest weld but isn't practical to use for every welding job. MIG and stick welding will still produce X-ray quality welds a lot faster and economically. On really critical stuff TIG has to be used. The same applies when O/A welding has to be used. Hope this clarifies things. Dave

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135 Fan

05-10-2007 22:16:35




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-10-2007 11:59:10  
Stan. I have to agree with you. Brazing is usually the preferred method of repairing cast iron as it is the most common and a lot easier than O/A welding. I did some cast O/A welding for my apprentice training. It takes a lot of practice and you need to use lots of flux. Brazing was just as strong when the pieces were broke on purpose. The only advantage to welding is when the working temperature of the part in service is too hot for brazing. As for the best way it's debatable. I know a guy who used to own a specialty welding shop and did a lot of very difficult repairs. He was good friends with the Eutectic rep. Apparently the best method for repairing cast iron is spray welding. The pieces are heated hot enough so that when the metal powder is sprayed it fuses to the cast just like it was poured that way. He repaired a Kohler engine block with the whole side of the block blown out by high temperature brazing and very slow cooling. Often times there are more than one best way to repair something. Sometimes it means taking it to someone that knows what they are doing and other times it means doing it yourself with what you are most comfortable at attempting. Dave

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Ludwig

05-10-2007 12:58:44




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 05-10-2007 11:59:10  
I'm with you Stan, I'm always interested when I see people on a discussion forum saying their way is the best way no matter what.
If it were my plow (and it will be at some point) it'd get stick welded. Why? Because I have a stick welder... I don't have an o/a torch and don't particularly need one. Sure it might be interesting but I don't even really need the stick welder.

The other one that gets me is people that post that they know the answer with all the conviction in the world. I know one guy on another list that does it all the time. Today he had one post where he posted his answer and the next post he made directly contradicted it because he'd posted before all the information was out. Made me laugh good.

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Stan in Oly, WA

05-09-2007 20:27:37




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
Hi Crispin,

Since Farmall MD Nut has had good results with the method he describes you should probably go with that. I don't know what added difficulties white or chilled will add to the normal problems of welding cast iron but it is known to be tricky to weld successfully because of its brittleness and the difference in shrinkage of the cast and the filler metals commonly used.

If I were going to restore an antique using a process I had no experience with---a process notorious for its uneven results, at that---I'd want to try to find some similar material and get some practice. I almost always learn something I wish I'd known sooner the first time I try something new.

Good luck, Stan

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Farmall MD nut

05-09-2007 14:08:38




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
Hi Crispin. You can weld it up with not much problem. Go to a weld supply store and get what's called "nickel 99". Get it in 3/32". It's stick welding rod. This is a rod that does not require any pre heat or post heat. V it out real good and weld it up. You can use DC-, or DC+. DC+ is most common. DC- will take 3 times longer to weld, but comes out beautiful. You'll see what I mean if you try both. DC- has much less splatter and welds entirely different, but turns out much better. DC+, I'd run about 95 amps. DC-, I'd run 135-140 amps.

Make sure you use a chipping hammer. The chipping hammer serves two purposes. First and most obvious, it cleans off the slag. Second it peens it, or stress releives it. Keep peening it a minute or two after slag is off. This helps releive any stress from welding. After it's welded put it in a tub or something and surround it in sand to let it cool real slow.

Happy welding

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mjbrown

05-09-2007 12:39:51




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
Are you fixing it for show or are you going plowing with it? If for show you can braze it on the back side where it won't show too bad. There are cast iron sticks that are used with o/a torch. The chilled means it is chilled cast iron. It was a process that made them wear well in stony soil. Syracuse Chilled Plow specialized in these and was eventually bought by Deere to add a chilled plow to their lineup for eastern stony soils . I doubt you will be able to weld it so that it will be reliable to plow with but you don't have much too lose either.

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JMS/MN

05-09-2007 11:21:29




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
I've used the wire feed almost exclusively over the last 19 years, but no reason why a stick could not be used. Done some moldboards, not shares. But setup is most important on any welding job. Grind the V, one or both sides. Clamp the parts onto other stock, leave it there until cooled. If it's still on the plow- V it on the front, down to the backside, and weld it with it in place- that will keep parts lined up. I don't know squat about white cast iron- never ran across that before, so regarding rods, etc.....? But I'd treat the setup the same.

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old

05-09-2007 08:35:06




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 Re: welding a plow share question... in reply to Crispin, 05-09-2007 07:59:57  
We welded a plow share up one time. We used ni-rod on it and it has held for 20 plus years. Been to long ago to be able to say more then that



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