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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Howzittwork?

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JerryU

04-13-2007 07:36:17

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Looking at a backup generator and stumbled across this "monitor." I have seen it and the instructions. You plug it into any outlet that is powered by a generator (not necessarily a Briggs). If it is powered by the utility, it will show a "U". If by the generator, it will show the percentage of load the generator is operating under. There are no connections to the device other than plugging it into an outlet, nor any sensors or senders in the generator.

Only thing I can see that it can measure is voltage, waveform, and frequency. Given that information, how can it calculate load % without knowing current, voltage and generator capacity?

Any ideas?

Load Monitor

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MarkB_MI

04-13-2007 20:48:05

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

I'm of the same mind as Keith. Frequency, voltage and the waveform are all this gadget has to work with. Power off the grid is going to be dead-on 60 Hz and almost perfectly sinusoidal. Generator power will probably not be a clean sine wave, and it probably won't be exactly 60 Hz. My guess is it does some digital signal processing to determine the type of power source (grid, alternator, inverter), then makes a calculation of the percent of generating capacity available. Since different types of generators have diffferent output characteristis, it would have to categorize the power source before calculating capacity.

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dave guest

04-13-2007 19:55:15

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

How about it reads phase shift which would increase as load increases if I recall from 40 years ago? Apparent power is equal to E times I times the cosine of the phase angle. Phase angle changes with inductive load, which would be most motors. When you find out please share. Thanks

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dave guest

04-13-2007 19:55:05

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

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KEB

04-13-2007 17:30:07

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

Never seen one, so don't know for sure, but I can come up with at least one way it could work.

Self-exciting alternators like are typically found on cheap engine-generators produce a lot of distortion on the output waveform, which can be quantified by measuring the harmonic energy (energy at 120, 180, 240 Hz, etc.). As the alternator approaches full load, the distortion decreases. That's why electronics work better when the generator is heavily loaded.

I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to find at least an approximate relationship between harmonic distortion and percent loading for a "typical" self exciting alternator. Then by measuring distortion, one can estimate the percentage load on the unit.

The power company does a reasonable job of controlling harmonic distortion on residential power, so if total distortion is below some threshold its probably safe to assume you're on commercial power.

Keith

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Ralph - Ohio

04-13-2007 16:52:25

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

The only way I can see that this thing could work is this: It could monitor the frequency and/or voltage, both of which usually drop as the load on a generator goes up. I'll bet the instructions tell you to put a full load on the generator and push a button on the device that records the frequency/voltage under full load. Then based on that information and the max. (no load) frequency/voltage it sees, it guesstimates the load %.

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John T

04-13-2007 15:40:12

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

Add my name to the list of "Wanna Know How it Works" lol I can easily understand the home generator versus the Utility as far as voltage n frequency stability and the shape of the sine wave etc to see whats runnin buttttt ttt how to calculate the load WITHOUT its current passing through the device??? If the load were inductive or even capacitive I could see it affecting the phase angle n power factor but a pure resistive load (unity PF) wouldnt provide any such information.

Hmmmmm mmmmm mmm ????? ??

John T

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Greg_Ky

04-13-2007 09:18:05

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

I could be wrong but I believe you plug your load into the bottom of the monitor.

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Slowpoke

04-24-2007 01:22:52

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to Greg_Ky, 04-13-2007 09:18:05

I certainly looks like a three prong outlet at the bottom. If not, then you have lost the use of one outlet. If the generator has 2 120 volt recepticals, you have lost half of capacity, so how could it measure full load? Unless of course one receptical can support full load by itself.
Hummmmm.

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JerryU

04-13-2007 09:37:33

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to Greg_Ky, 04-13-2007 09:18:05

Not according to the instructions. It claims it will monitor your generator's output, not just the load connected. The display is in %. That's what's got me baffled. It also knows if it is connected to a generator or utility (although I have not had it hooked up to a generator, it does indicate a "U" when plugged in).

Hoping someone has used this. If not, I will let you know when I get some time to fool with it.

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TimWafer

04-13-2007 11:51:13

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 09:37:33

Yeah, I cant figure that one out either!? Let us know if you find out anything.

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Red Dave

04-13-2007 09:02:15

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Re: Howzittwork? in reply to JerryU, 04-13-2007 07:36:17

Don't know, but you have me curious too.

If you find out, please post it here.

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