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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Wire Weld w/ A/C?

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Backyard Engine

04-13-2007 05:48:27




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Is there any reason that you could not run wire using A/C current? I'm not talking about the A/C current powering the feeder, just energizing the wire itself for the weld.




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135 Fan

04-13-2007 18:47:53




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 Re: Wire Weld w/ A/C? in reply to Backyard Engineer, 04-13-2007 05:48:27  
For standard MIG and flux-core AC won't produce proper current for a sound weld. For submerged arc welding however AC current is commonly used as well as DC current. AC does not get arc blow and on some large weldments 2 or more wires can be fed at the same time. A sub-arc arc can actually have 2 wires feeding one arc at high amperage. If there are two power sources feeding two different arcs, one machine has to be DC and one AC. I used to have Lincolns book, The procedure handbook of arc welding but loaned it out never to see it again. It even included tandem, tandem sub-arc welding where two machines were used at the same time and each arc being fed by two wires. That combination would put an awful lot of weld down in a hurry as well as a lot of heat. Dave

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Stan in Oly, WA

04-13-2007 09:33:51




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 Re: Wire Weld w/ A/C? in reply to Backyard Engineer, 04-13-2007 05:48:27  
Hi BE,

I'm speculating on this because I don't remember hearing or reading about why AC isn't used. One of the advantages of DC output stick welders is that the uninterrupted current does not cause a problem maintaining the arc. AC stick welders are subject to the current going to zero at same cyclic rate as the power supply. Stick electrodes contain arc stabilizers to deal with this problem. Electrodes which aren't specifically intended for AC welders can be extremely difficult to use with a low open circuit voltage AC welder, or with any AC welder at amperages normally used by non-industrial users. You only have to try to weld with 6010 or with regular (non AC) 7018 with an AC welder to see how much difference DC makes.

Regular wire feed welding uses a solid wire and shielding gas. Although different gases have different current carrying capabilities---Argon carries current much better than CO2, for instance---it may be that no gas has the ability to serve as an arc stabilizer, or to do so without compromising the shielding function. Arc stabilizers could probably be added to flux core wire, but wire feed welders that run flux core only are not particularly popular anyway so there would seem to be little market incentive to do so.

I'll watch with interest to see what the real answer is.

All the best, Stan

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135 Fan

04-14-2007 23:32:48




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 Re: Wire Weld w/ A/C? in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 04-13-2007 09:33:51  
You might be on to something Stan. Maybe AC current can only be used at real high amperage for wire feed welding. Sub-arc wires all require different fluxs that could have special additives for AC. Maybe at the high amperage the current cycling isn't an issue. For Aluminum I think DCRP is normally used as it is a colder process than TIG and Reverse polarity gives more penetration. Dave



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Joe Somebody

04-13-2007 06:45:49




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 Re: Wire Weld w/ A/C? in reply to Backyard Engineer, 04-13-2007 05:48:27  
I think AC is used for Aluminum with gas.

Most if not all other alloys use DC

Also the type power supply for wire welding is something called "constant voltage" where the amperage is controlled by the speed of the wire while the machine keeps the voltage the same.

which is not like a stick welder where the amperage is adjusted,and kept at a "constant current" and the voltage might vary.

This is generally why a wire feeder can't just be attached to a stick welder.

You might get a chance to view a late model welder with both C and CV settings.

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Backyard Engineer

04-13-2007 17:25:02




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 Re: Wire Weld w/ AC? in reply to Joe Somebody, 04-13-2007 06:45:49  
I have welded aluminium with stick using AC current per instructions on the rod package. It was quite a splattery messy ordeal.

As for running aluminium wire, I have always used DC straight,.030 or .041 hard alloy wire, with 100% argon at a high flow rate.

We once experimented with 75/25 gas with aluminium wire on some scrap aluminium before changing over gasses, just to see what it would do. It was way too HOT. It just burned through the material and was extremely dirty.

I'm with the AC/DC/CC/CV stuff and have several different machines that throw from any to everything. My little crackerbox I have mounted in the barn for quick patch jobs is an AC only machine. I have a wire feeder (spool gun), with its own contactor, gas valve and speed control box, that is not dependent on the welding current to operate the wire feeding functions. I originally set it up to run off a portable unit with no remote feature for one particular large outdoor aluminium job. The feeder drive is totally isolated from the welding power. I keep wondering what would happen running that feeder with AC besides a little less penetration and maybe more splatter.

I guess maybe the only way to find out is to hook it up and pull the trigger.

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