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New Dewalt trips breaker alot

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Skinner

05-11-2001 03:25:44




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I bought a new 5.5 hp HD Dewalt Chop Saw (abrasive). The rating on the side says 15 amp @ 120 volts AC. I have it hooked to a 12ga circuit with a 20 amp breaker. After using for a minute or two cutting it pops the breaker, even if I barely bump the trigger it will pop the breaker. Thought it was the breaker or circut so I tried it on a different one but same thing. Now if I plug into a 30 amp breaker she does fine.
BTW, she does cut good and it does not sound like I'm overloading the saw at all.

I would simply put a 30 amp breaker in the box but the circuit and plug is only rated for 20 amps. Again the wiring is 12ga 2 + ground about 10 feet from the breaker box.

Also, before I bought this saw, several people on this forum told me either the saw was not 5.5 hp OR it pulled more than the advertised 15amps. I believe it's every bit of 5hp because the first Dewalt I bought was 3.5 hp and wasn't very stout, and it was also rated for 15 amps.

Any suggestions?

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Bill

05-14-2001 13:41:19




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
Trying to clear some muddy waters- The Code specifies the allowable temperature of the conductor, which in turn determines the type of insulation. The 310 tables are actually backward. Each branch circuit is allowed 85% or FLA (full load amps)for 20A this is ~17A. # 12 wire is actually reduced in ampacity by the code for most common insulations.

Have you checked the voltage at the outlet? It should be 120-122 nominally. You might also check the voltage while starting the saw. As was pointed out ealrlier your saw uses power or wattage which is E X I (volts X amps) and when it doesn't get the volts it needs it will take some extra amps-- also you said it seemed to not like being loaded which usually is another voltage problem indicator. Think about the length of conductor and also any possible connection problems that could exist.

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Skinner

05-14-2001 16:46:57




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 Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Bill, 05-14-2001 13:41:19  
Length of the run is 10' plus the factory cord on the saw. When I said it isn't loading up, what I mean is it cuts real easy, not like I'm overloading it nor a lack of power.

The voltage is a steady 120.1 vac and drops less than a volt or two when the trigger is pulled then quickly recovers.

Dewalt emailed me and said they would send me a new style brush that would eliminate this problem. They still have not responded how they get 2 extra HP out of their DW871 (5.4hp) saw while they keep the amp rating at 15 amps and RPM rating the same as their DW870 (3.5 hp) saw at 15 amps and 3450 rpm. Marketing gimmick I believe.

For now, there is a 30 amp breaker installed in place of the 20 amp and she is working fine. Since the wire is in metal conduit, I'm sure the 30 amp breaker will still protect me to a point. Hopefully the brushes will correct the problem, but I somehow don't feel to optimistic...

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Bill

05-16-2001 10:07:45




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 Re: Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-14-2001 16:46:57  
I agree on the horsepower ratings, its not even good fertilizer.

If you can't get it straightened out with DeWalt, my advice would be a twenty amp time delay fuse. It's code legal and might keep the heat down in your shop.



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John in MA

05-13-2001 16:50:05




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
One horsepower is 746 watts. Assuming an impossible 100% efficiency, your motor would be about 2.4HP. The 3.5 or 5.5 figures are probably peak HP ratings. That's the power a motor develops if it's brought to a dead stop at the same time it's hit by lightning.

Borrow an ammeter and see what is draws.



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Dan McManus

05-11-2001 14:17:37




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
Skinner,
To size any motor for electrical power you need to take running amps times 175% and use slow blow fuses or equal in form of breaker. Yes, you could get away with 12 gauage wire but it would NOT be to any electrical codes. If anything were to go wrong Mr. Insureance man will tell you, you're on your own. RPMs have nothing to do with horsepower but with how many poles and cycles the motor runs at. The reason motors are sized this way is that they induce a magnetic field to cut across the field windings of the motor, creating a push pull as the AC cycles back and forth and changes the polarity of the magnetic field. (single pole X 60 cycles a second X 60 seconds a minute = 3600) minus loss to induction, fiction comes out to 3450 RPMs. If on standard fuses or breaker you have to figure 800% of running amps for proof if you know someone with a amp meter that has a peak hold and a line splitter run one test and I'll bet you find starting amps over 70.
Dan

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Jerri

05-11-2001 13:44:55




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
Skinner,

Make sure that nothing else is on this circuit. A 20 ampere breaker is only good for 16 amperes continuous, but will hold greater than that for awhile. I suspect you have something else on the circuit, take it off.

Jerri



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Branden

05-11-2001 09:51:24




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
Hey Skinner,

I have the exact same thing as you, only mine is a 15 amp Makita. I have the same set up, power-breaker wise, and I trip mine as well. It tends to do it if something else is plugged into the same outlet, or sometimes just on its own. I have had it plugged into 3 different outlets, from 2 different shops, and a Miller welder generator, and what I find, is that if I am loading up the motor too much, by pushing down to hard and cutting too fast, this is what trips the breaker. Since I've taken it easier, I haven't had that problem. By the way, if you go to your local electric motor rebuilder guy, he will tell you that most of your big companies..... ..dewalt, makita, millwaukee and such, are using the same electric motor from the same company. Supposedly that is the truth as to what I was told.

Branden

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big fred

05-11-2001 08:49:30




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
If, after talking to Dewalt, you decide the problem is not with the saw, you might try looking for a breaker designed specifically for inductive (motor) loads. They will take a little longer to trip, and will accomodate the large startup current of an electric motor. But by all means talk to Dewalt first, you may have a faulty starting capacitor in your motor.



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Big Jake

05-11-2001 06:37:33




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
#12 wire can handle 30 amps @ 10'. Your recepticle might not be rated for that much. Are you sure this is not a 230 volt motor?
Either way it must be spinning 3450 rpm to get its
5 hp rating!



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rob-texas

05-11-2001 20:52:37




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 Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Big Jake, 05-11-2001 06:37:33  
are you talking code, or what you can get away with? i have been a little confused since starting to peruse this forum, both by the vehement disagreements about what a very long, precise, exacting, and tedious document spells out in infinite detail, and how there can be such diametrically opposed opinions about what it says, or is this just one area of confusion? i have so many, they all start to confuse me.

anyway, by code, #12 ain't adequate for 30A, you need #10, or so the obelisk says, unless other wise specified elsewhere in the code, or if i am not too confused you can run 30 amps through the #12, but you have to have a 20 amp breaker??? glad i didn't decide to be an electrician when i growed up
rob

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WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT IN CODE BOOK?

05-14-2001 05:58:17




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 Re: Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to rob-texas, 05-11-2001 20:52:37  
show me where in code book it says that?

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm



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rob-answer

05-14-2001 17:04:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT IN CODE BOOK?, 05-14-2001 05:58:17  
hello, i am no electrician, but through necessity have had to force the nec deep into what grey matter i have left. table 310-16 lists ampacity of probably most commonly available conductors. the high temp ones are listed at 30 amps, but if you notice, there is an obelisk (one of those funny footnote indicators), the footnotes say that #12 conductors must be protected by 20 amp overcurrent device, unless otherwise specified in code. now i probably have at least 99.9% of the code memorized (actually have read about 9.99% of it) but don't think that the above limitation is eliminated for ordinary cable runs. please correct me if i am wrong, like i said elsewhere, it's amazing that something so detailed can lead to so much confusion, but then it is that detail that leads to the confiusion. i still can't get anyone to tell me how to find ampacity of triplex????
rob

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rod

05-11-2001 05:34:50




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 Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to Skinner, 05-11-2001 03:25:44  
Since it is new, have you tried calling or emailing Dewalt tech support?



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Old Sparky

05-14-2001 18:43:53




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 Re: Re: New Dewalt trips breaker alot in reply to rod, 05-11-2001 05:34:50  
Many exceptions to the ampacity tables of Article 310 can be found in Article 430 (motors). 430-22(b) deals with duty cycle motors. Since the cutoff runs for only short times, I think this section properly applies. Regardless of those who may differ with this opinion, experience since 1947 with electrical wiring tells me that if the circuit has #12 wire, installing a true 20A 120 receptacle outlet and using a 30 amp breaker will not hurt anything IF THIS CUTOFF SAW IS THE ONLY THING TO BE ON THE CIRCUIT.

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