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safely discharge a capacitor

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Tim B from MA

03-21-2007 10:56:05




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I need to know how to safely dischage a "high voltage" capacitor inside my microwave (I assume "high voltage" means 115 volts as I don't believe there are any transformers in there). Can this be done with just a wire, or with some household load, like a light or an power tool?

Situation is: My microwave died and best I can tell there at least one of three fuses inside that blew - two thermal fuses and an regular amperage fuse (I think).

Repair instructions call for discharging the capacitor while working in the machine (it's for the fan motor, or turntable motor, I think I don't have instructions here).

Thanks,
Tim

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Kanuck

03-25-2007 16:21:17




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I discharged a 600 microfarad cap with my butt once. I had a buddy play a joke on me by placing it between the front seat cushions of my service truck with the end sticking out. Good thing it jolted me as soon as I jumped in and not as we were going down the road. Gota get some new friends...



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sheeptick

03-22-2007 17:58:19




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I would just give my brother another beer and he would discharge it with his hands.



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Tim B from MA

03-22-2007 08:46:09




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I love this site, thanks for all the replys guys. Turns out that one atttacment terminal melted off of a cavity temperature switch (also called a thermal fuse ??). I didn't have to get near the high voltage capacitor - really did not even get the machine apart enough to see it.

One comment about those who pooh pooh do-it-yourself-ers. A few years ago we had new kitchen cabinets put in, some of the things the guy tried to do (caught him in time) and did (didn't catch him in time) were just plain assinine, terrible.

Three years ago we had a gable upstairs "bumped out" as a small addition and had the two upstairs bathrooms remodeled. The electritian tried to get away with something that was down right dangerous, the plumbers work bugs the heck out of me everytime I get in the shower, and if I didn't fix some of the carpentry myself, my boys shower would probably be falling into the kitchen about now.

Just because someone gets paid to do it, even if they are liscensed, doesn't mean they will do it well or even safely.

I do my research and proceed with caution, haven't burned down the house yet.

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dave guest

03-21-2007 19:19:08




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
The old black and white TVs would hold charge for a week sometimes. You could short them 4 or 5 times and still have energy. BTDT. Started in radio and ended with color. RETS graduate.



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Red Dave

03-24-2007 16:12:44




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to dave guest, 03-21-2007 19:19:08  
Yep, Used to sell rebuilt picture tubes. You had to watch out for them even if they sat for a few days. They would bite ya!



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Sam#3

03-21-2007 19:07:55




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I agree if you found a capacitor in the microwave oven there"s a good bet it"s part of the high voltage power supply.
They generally say to discharge through some resistance to avoid damaging the cap by discharging too rapidly. Causes internal arcing and plate puncture.
Something you might want to remember about caps and AC is the cap charges to the PEAK voltage presented to them. Exp.: 120v(rms)* 1.414 = 169.68v. The larger the cap the bigger the charge as in the longer the discharge duration.

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soundguy

03-21-2007 18:50:20




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I use a 100w house lamp made up with a clamp for ground, and an insulated handle 'probe' to discharge all caps before I work on them.

Soundguy



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Gary Schafer

03-22-2007 08:55:37




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to soundguy, 03-21-2007 18:50:20  
I would not use a lamp to discharge a high voltage capacitor. There can be several thousand volts stored on those capacitors and your 120 volt light bulb can be disintegrated in a flash leaving you with no resistance to discharge the capacitor. While you might get by with it on lower voltage capacitors or even high voltage capacitors if the bleeder resistor in the circuit has almost fully discharged the capacitor already. But if that bleeder resistor (that is part of the power supply design) happens to have opened up there could be full charge on the capacitor.
With the light bulb you may think that you have discharged the capacitor but have only burned out the bulb.

You would be better off using a large resistor appropriately sized for the job.

After that a dead short with a shorting stick or large screwdriver is always recommended as your shorting resistor may have opened too.

Regards
Gary

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souNdguy

03-22-2007 10:56:43




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Gary Schafer, 03-22-2007 08:55:37  
I was just giving the basics.. I have other goodies built into my probe including ne bulbs (and leds with various resistor combos to show voltage from about 20kv and down- it was part of a hi voltage test reader for electric fencing.. ) and a dedicated bleed resistor. I assumed if we got into heavy discussion exact design plans could be talked about. I'm sure othere here also use multi stage discharge protection.

Soundguy

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dan hill

03-23-2007 05:23:03




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to souNdguy, 03-22-2007 10:56:43  
Big capacitors make alot of noise when discharged with a dead short.A newbie may jump and break something.There is also the time factor, it takes time to fully dis charge a capacitor or the anode of a color pix tube.A fellow brought in a tv chassis that he had been fooling with.I plugged it in .This tv did not have a dog house as we called the shield around the hi volt section.He said I wonder if I put that tube cap back on tight.Before I could say dont, He touched the cap on the 1B3 a high volt rectifier.To make matters worse his other hand was on the chassis.A purple arc hit his finger and he turned very white.The only thing I found wrong was a mis adjusted ion trap.I have found some attempted repairs in fence chargers that could have been deadly to any one who touched the charger case.Lightning had destroyed an mov that was connected the hot side of the line and the charger case.Dufus soldered the two leads together.Chargers that come in with the rivets removed are suspect.Reminds me of the fellow who cut an arcing oven element with bolt cutters.

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soundguy

03-23-2007 10:24:23




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to dan hill, 03-23-2007 05:23:03  
What is it with people and fence chargers! I have seen near identical issues. A friend brought me one to fix after he fxed it. Long story short.. but he had electrified the freaking case!

Some people have no business owning a soldering iron! And those little stickers I laugh at that say no user serviceable parts inside.. well.. I'm beginning to understand WHY they use them now!

thanks for the stories.

So far I've never been hit by a 2nd anode/flyback don't want to either!

Did burn a finger fixing a precision variable power supply one time.. was hooking a clip probe to the circuit to test V at a test point in order to calibrate it.. and forgot to turn the thing off... finger slipped and touched the component that had 55v half wave on it.. no biggie, but I skinned my hand ripping it out of the cramped metal housing....

Soundguy

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MikeCatthemuseum

03-21-2007 17:30:19




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I recently repaired my microwave at home and had to discharge the capacitor. First time it had been sitting a few days and it barely threw a spark. Second time, I had just unplugged it. Hit it with the screwdriver and BANG!, it scared the crap out of me! Sounded like a firecracker going off. Next few times weren't so bad, as I had a better idea what to expect, but I can assure you the the instructions to discharge that capacitor are not just there for legalese. It'll bite you severely.

My case was the opposite of yours, it worked TOO good. Anytime you shut the door, the magnetron fired up... you could hear it humming and it would heat a cup of water. I found a few online websites on microwave repair through Google that got me through the repair, I suggest you do the same. I wouldn't hesitate to work on a waver again and I consider myself electrically retarded. Just take the proper precautions and don't fire it up without ALL the covers and shields re-installed so you don't get cooked.

In my case, the replacement part was available at the local electronics supply and cost me about $15. Sure beats $100 for a new oven, and you can't buy them like this anymore. I call it the "Monsterwave". It's an old Litton with a cooking cavity big enough to put one of the new wavers into. It'll hold a 20lb turkey with room to spare. Date stamped inside was Dec 14, 1977. Mom got it new, gave it to me 10yrs ago, and it still gets used almost daily.

This is the second repair, first was a blown fuse like yours. That and lightbulb replacements are all it has needed in closing on 30yrs.

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Bob

03-21-2007 17:37:16




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 Mike..... in reply to MikeCatthemuseum, 03-21-2007 17:30:19  
Can you imagine touching that and getting te "full jolt"?



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dan hill

03-21-2007 15:44:57




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
You dont have enough knowledge to be working on a micro wave.If the fuses blew you could have a bad trans former.



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tech4

03-21-2007 14:46:29




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
I have worked on high power transmitters and TV sets and all kinds of high voltage for 50 years and it is ok to short out a capacitor. Just make sure you have an insulated handle. In my work I use a shorting bar that I made with a plastic insulated handle and an aligator clip that is attached to the metal chassis(ground). Use a screwdriver with plastic handle and a double aligator clip to short out. Those charged capacitors in a microwave are not going to kill you but they will sure make you move your hand fast and you (I) usually cut your hand. Be sure the power is unplugged?

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Gary Schafer

03-22-2007 08:46:03




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to tech4, 03-21-2007 14:46:29  
Don't bet that the capacitors in there won't kill you. They can kill you in a heart beat! No pun intended.

There are several thousand volts in a microwave oven to operate the magnetron. Stored energy in the capacitor can be severa kilowatts of energy.

Regards
Gary



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tech4

03-24-2007 16:02:18




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Gary Schafer, 03-22-2007 08:46:03  
Show me the documentation of anyone that has been killed by a charged capacitor



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dan hill

03-25-2007 04:07:12




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to tech4, 03-24-2007 16:02:18  
A hand to hand shock can make your heart run wild. Talk to some one who has a problem with rapid heartbeat.



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tech4

03-25-2007 06:01:05




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to dan hill, 03-25-2007 04:07:12  
Yes it certainly can but microwave oven capacitors average only about 1 microfarad at 2000 volts and although they contain a very short duration of energy, you would have to have a weak heart but remember a defibrillator also sends a shock to your heart to restart the heart. My main point is that I have heard for years that a charged capacitor will kill you and there probably was someone that was killed by a very high capacity (several hundred microfarads)with very high voltage although I have never seen it documented . I have worked as an electronic technician since school in 1956 and worked with probably 10,000 technicians in those years and I have seen many technicians that were shocked including me but not on purpose by charged capacitors and I have never seen or heard or read of someone killed by a charged capacitor - I would just like to see the documentation, research or trade magazines or newspaper articles that confirmed a death by a charged capacitor.I don't advocate taking a shock but it is very unlikely that a charged capacitor will kill someone but it is sure not fun. The first thing I was taught in electronics school was to work with one hand in the back pocket when working with energized or charged equipment.

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buickanddeere

03-21-2007 13:38:16




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
A dead short isn't a good idea across a capacitor. An ordinary edison base pigtail with a 100W HD trouble light lamp in it works on small to medium sized caps. Leave it connected for a couple of minutes. Some capacitors get a 2nd lease on life.



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paul sebek

03-21-2007 12:52:08




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
Actually the capacitor runs the magnetron(microwave generator)(>5000V). Use a medium to large screwdriver and short across the leads. There usually is only one fuse along the main AC leads. Often the micro-switches around the door go bad and blow it out.



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Bob

03-21-2007 14:18:54




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to paul sebek, 03-21-2007 12:52:08  
Paul's correct about the voltage.

Some of you guys who have NO CLUE as to how much voltage is in a microwave oven better keep your fingers out of there.

Or take a look on the web and see what kind of voltage/current a defibrilator uses!



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dan hill

03-22-2007 02:51:51




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Bob, 03-21-2007 14:18:54  
A hand to hand hivolt shock can mess up your heart beat.The heart beat rate depends on electrical signals that stimulate nerves.The loud crack he gets on discharge will scare him pretty good.If he gets shocked he will give up micro wave oven repair.



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Bill in IN

03-21-2007 11:35:21




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
Most (underline that) capactors have enough leakage that if its been setting for a few hours shorting the terminals won"t even get a reaction. Some even have a resistor built in to accomplish this and keep the legal staff on the golf course.



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dan hill

03-22-2007 02:56:15




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Bill in IN, 03-21-2007 11:35:21  
Resistors do open or increase in value.Dont depend on them.Oil capacitors can hold a charge for a long time.



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VADAVE

03-21-2007 11:18:41




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
If the capacitor is for the fan or turntable it's not very big. Probably 1 or 2 inches long and 1/2 inch across. You won't even notice it, but if you would feel safer just put your screwdriver across the leads.
Now if that sucker is 5-6 inchs by 2-3 across you want to be a lot more careful and the screwdriver will draw a huge spark.



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IH2444

03-21-2007 11:06:40




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 Re: safely discharge a capacitor in reply to Tim B from MA, 03-21-2007 10:56:05  
It does have high voltage in there! beware!
I am not sure of the proper procedure though.



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