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Electric service do it yourself

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Fred in central

03-20-2007 17:35:15




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Need to replace the breaker panel in an old farm house that I'm getting ready to move into. I'm on a tight budget and would rather not get licensed electricians and inspectors involved. I know my way around electrical circuits having been a technician in line voltage power control for 30 years (industrial, I'm not real familiar residential red tape). I'll make the changeover live if I have to but obviously would rather not. My original thought was to have the service moved from the house to the shop so I could install a disconnect and run a new service to the house. Called the electric company, they said I would need to have a licensed electrician install a new service at the shop, disconnect the existing service from the house and run a new service from the shop to the house. Lots of $$. So I decided to just keep the service feed to the house, install a disconnect at the feed and upgrade from there. Question is: What's a good way to shut down the power until I get the disconnect installed? Will the electric company do it without bringing in electricians and inspectors? I've heard that fire companies can disconnect power to a residence at the pole. What would the consequences be if I cut the seal and pulled the meter?

I know what some of the replies are going to be "DANGEROUS hire an electrician" but this is trivial stuff and electricians are definately not in the budget. Thanks, Fred

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CaptRon

04-01-2007 18:51:58




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Here in NC the owner can pull electrical permits and do the work, I did this to set my own electric pole for my RV. I have no problem pulling and resetting meters here if I have to.
When I was on the FD in S Fla we pulled meters all the time then the electric co would show up and drop the wires depending on how bad the damage was.

B-I-L is a meter reader in MN and he carries seals in his vehicle. When he sees a meter without a seal he just puts one on. The same around here, I know some of the Progress Energy guys and they don't log the seal numbers, they only look for a blue seal.

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jeffcat

03-22-2007 20:52:34




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
You rang a little bell from many years ago. One of the neighbors did that when he did some rewires in the barn. Pulled the meter so he could hook his friends generator after a storm to milk the cows. Ya shure. He must have plugged it in and out for most of the week. When he was all done the truck just came out and put a new lead seal on it. "Dam--n Farmers" That was all he heard about it. Jeffcat

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Here is how to do it..Joh

03-22-2007 18:32:51




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Years ago I couldn't pay my electric bill. So, the electric (MET ED) came and pulled my meter for non-payment of bill. So, I installed the 200 amp service panel and a few outlets inside the house. Called them in a few days and said that I now have some money and that I would like to pay my bill. In about a day, they came out and put the meter back in. So, the 20 dollars for the disconnect and reconnect fee was cheap.

Now that was about 35 yrs. ago.

So moral to the story: give it a try!

HTH John,PA

Oh yea, prepare for a toungue lashing for breakin the seal to put the lines into the meter box.

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Davis In SC

03-22-2007 21:11:39




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Here is how to do it..Joh, 03-22-2007 18:32:51  
We once had the meter stolen, from a barn at a rented farm.. Power co said it was not uncommon.. Folks steal them to reconnect power after their meter is pulled for non-payment..



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RWK in WI

03-21-2007 17:44:19




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Just be aware that there are some meter bases / sockets that are equiped to automaticaly connect a bypass when the meter is pulled. This can cause a real surprise. Be careful.



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Pooh Bear

03-22-2007 20:11:06




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to RWK in WI, 03-21-2007 17:44:19  
What does the bypass do?

Pooh Bear



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RWK in WI

03-23-2007 17:18:35




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Pooh Bear, 03-22-2007 20:11:06  
A bypass is a spring loaded bar that swings into place to connet both sets - in and out - on each leg of the meter base. The purpose is to keep electricity on when doing meter service. In other words pulling the meter doesn't shut off the electricity.



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Sparky 2

03-21-2007 17:31:31




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Fred you didnt give us much information in your questions.

1. Like what size is the service now?

2. What size do you want to upgrade to on the "new" service?

3. What size is your ground wire now?

4. Does your local area have any requrements over and above the NEC in Art. 230 and 250?

Those are just a few of the questions we need answered to give you an accurate answer. If some areas it is no big deal to cut the tag and pull the meter, in other areas you will have to have it inspected by the power company before they will rehook your service. I can see a lot of problems if this is not done right the first time. And do you know and understand the difference between grounding and bonding? And when not to bond?

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davpal

03-21-2007 11:26:39




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Fred, I just did the exact project you are talking about in an older farm house a few years ago. Went down to Builders Square (when they were still in business here in michigan), bought a 200 amp box with lots of breakers, all 12-2 romex. I left the 60 amp breaker fuse box in the house and started wiring it while I was using the old system. I installed all new romex, about 50 plug in outlets, new 220 wire for my range, new underground 10-2 wire to a small garage with a new 60 amp breaker box and totally rewired that little garage, put in new plug ins, boxes and lights. I had to trench that wire in. Then I ran 3 strands of number 4 copper wire and phone line underground to new pole barn and put a 100 amp box in there, 220 plug in, phone, and all new plug ins and lights. We then ran a 10-2 underground wire to another pole barn on the place about 100 ft from this one and put in another 60 amp service, lights, and plugs. I was pretty busy for a while! Back to the house, I put in about 20 circuits because I had the room in the new box. I put just about everything on its own new circuit. Microwave, furnace, well, watersoftner, washer, dryer, . I labeled everything in the box very well. Remember, I still don't have the new box hooked up yet. I called the electric company to come out and trench the whole new service underground and they told me to "pull the meter". Now I just jumped the old three wires to my new service and turned it on. Now I have all new in the house, barns, and garage, but I still have the old weatherhead feeding it. The power company told me I would have to have it inspected before they would trench it so I called the inspector, he said good job, power co came out with ditch witch and put 4-000 aluminum wire up to a brand new meter box, now they hooked up my 3-000 copper wires that were waiting to hook up, unhooked the original weahter head and now it was done! Long story but it did work.

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buickanddeere

03-21-2007 13:42:12




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to davpal, 03-21-2007 11:26:39  
10/2 out to a 60 amp panel with 120/240V circuits? How & where did you connect ground & neutrals? What size of breaker is on the supply end of those 10/2 feeds to remote panels?



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davpal

03-21-2007 23:46:43




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to buickanddeere, 03-21-2007 13:42:12  
Whoops, It was 10-3 wire, or 8-3. It has been a while. That was just to the small garage and pole barns that we wanted lights and plugins. No 240V stuff out in those buildings. 20 amp breaker feeding each building. For the big pole barn with welder,240 lincoln and 120 mini mig and all the shop tools we used 3 strands of number 4 copper and 100 amp service. A 60 amp breaker in the house runs that barn. Used all 12-2 in there for all plugins and lights. Kind of overkill and hard to work with but that building can sure run lots of powertools and lights at the same time. I get everything going around here sometimes it looks like a factory out here!

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paul

03-22-2007 10:21:22




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to davpal, 03-21-2007 23:46:43  
I too was wondering on 100 foot run of #10 & 60 amps - that really wouldn'ta computed. :)

--->Paul



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JoeBob/IN

03-21-2007 10:00:31




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I just built our house almost entirely by myself last year. Did all the wiring and of course had it inspected. Not an electrician but most all us farmers seem to know what we are doing. Passed with flying colors, mostly 'cause I went above code requirements. Anyways, got chatting with inspector while looking at MY meter base which didn't have a meter in it yet and his take on the situation was if I needed to for what ever reason that I could cut the lock on the meter base since I bought it and installed it. I could take the meter out too but I couldn't tamper with the meter itself. He said if anyone had a problem with that to call him personally and he would take care of the problem. Even got that all in writing! Those inspectors aren't so bad afterall.

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buickanddeere

03-21-2007 07:14:12




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Even if you can't afford it. This is the time to install either a Ronk Meter base with the generator transfer switch built in. Or a Reliance Controls TW series of feed though 200amp generator transfer panel between the meter base and the breaker panel. Either of these switches allows shutting off the entire electrical service without cutting the meter seals.



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PaulW_NJ

03-20-2007 19:41:27




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
In my municipality of Northern New Jersey, a homeowner is allowed to do electrical work on his own house/buildings. But it is not a state law and varies by municipality. I would check with your electrical inspector as to your legalities. The power company will cut your power, and will reconnect only if they are provided a "cut-in card" signed by the local inspector after he has approved the job. Again, the inspector will allow you to do the work if you are the property owner. No license is required.

I know licensed electricians in a more urban municipalities with more rigid requirements who will sign off on the work for a small fee for folks they know, and after looking at the job themselves. . . . so that may be another alternative for you.

Once power is cut, typically at the mast or pole, you are on your own to conduct the work, and schedule the power company back when your are done. That process used to be free here, but the last several years they began charging $200 for cut and reconnect. You are responsible for the mast, meter pan, main panel, and service conductors.

I own/have owned several houses that I have upgraded, and am currently restoring an old farm. I installed a separate 150A overhead service to my barn/workshop, and upgraded my farmhouse to 200A on a separate service. The buildings are 150 feet apart. Other than getting 2 electric bills each month, there"s no extra charge, and I felt it alot "cleaner" than having wires across my property. It also lets you work in stages and avoid clearance requirements for long runs, underground trenches, etc, etc.

Cutting the service isn"t the problem. Pulling the meter is easy, but you likely will need larger service drop conductors upstream of the meter pan if you"re going to higher capacity. You never know what you"ll find in the meter pan (corrosion, etc) Getting reconnected, violating your fire insurance, etc, are all real issues.

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Billy NY

03-20-2007 19:36:24




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I remember one time getting stuck with a outstanding bill for electric service from the previous occupant, bill was unpaid unbeknownst to me, come home and zee power is off.

Playin hockey for a few hours before this, hefty workout, was lookin forward to hittin the shower, no diggity mon ! Well I am not to be stopped, am stubborn and determined by now ! So.... I proceeds quickly and take a look at the meter, carefully snip the tag, remove zee meter to find these little plastic sleeves on the meter prongs, which breaks the contact, hmmm, these thin little sleeves is all it takes, and is the reason the house is dark ! So I removes those and put the meter back on, changed the utilies to my name the next day, and settled them out. Reason I carefully snipped the wire loop on tag was so I could bend it back together and you'd not know the difference unless you looked close. The meters have all been changed now, to the newer style and remote read. I like Old's theory on this, who really is to know and even if it were an issue, killing the power whils't working on it is always smart, why take the risk if you must do a little moonlighting to save some $$, pull it and hide it until yer done.

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Billy NY

03-20-2007 19:45:17




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Billy NY, 03-20-2007 19:36:24  
Also must reiterate that making sure there is no load important, and in the instance above I made sure the main breakers were off before I pulled it.



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dave guest

03-20-2007 19:35:40




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Agree with DB in mich. In mich. licensed electrician is allowed to pull meter and replace afterwards. Also allowed to disconnect splices overhead and reconnect(Do not do this if you have no experience). Make sure all loads are off. If you disconnect neutral first, you will put circuits in series on 240volts causing appliances to burn up. Embarassing and costly. Pulling meter is fairly safe compared to disconnecting splices. I have done this lots of times. Just call power company and ask for new seal or save old one and put back on. Licensed contractor in Mich.

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MarkB_MI

03-20-2007 19:23:43




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
My son is an electrician, and I know it is very common for electricians here in Michigan to break seals and pull meters. After all, if you have to do emergency work on the weekend, how will you get the power company out to pull the meter? He pulled the meter at my house; after we did the work he reinstalled it and I had the service inspected. However, it was several months before the power company got around to putting a new seal on the meter.

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jhill52

03-20-2007 20:07:04




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to MarkB_MI, 03-20-2007 19:23:43  
I think the key here is you had a permit and you got the job inspected ASAP. I live in Mi and I don't think the power would put a new lock on without an insoection tag on the meter box. Also in Mi a homeowner can do his own work with the proper permit and inspection.



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Gary from Muleshoe

03-20-2007 18:48:33




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Here in Texas i have pulled the meter several times to run electrical for someone. Then i just tell the homeowner to call and have them reseal it. Never had a problem. I am just a handyman do-it-yourselfer type. So I tell them not give my name out.



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Peabo

03-20-2007 18:45:25




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I have pulled the meter many times, I tell the home owner that if the power company asks tell them that some electrical work had to be done (truth) and to give me a call if there were any problems. I have never heard of any problems. Once again IN MY AREA most power companies are understanding about this sorta thing as long as they don't suspect you are trying to bypass the meter or it becomes excesive.

ONE BIG SAFETY TIP - Make sure that all loads are off by tripping the main or the individual breakers before pulling or placing the meter. Have a goodun

Peabo

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charles(mo)

03-20-2007 18:35:50




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I am not sure with other states or electric Companies. I am sure there are different policies. I only know what our policy is at my electric cooperative here in Missouri.

If someone calls us to pull the meter so some electrical work can be done, we do it. Just need a days notice. Also, the fire departments are not allowed to touch our equipment, period. If there is a house fire and they need the electric shut off, they call us and we will send a lineman to do the job. I don't think any electric company would allow that.

I know sometimes people will pull their own meter to do some work and ask the electric guys to reseal the meter. But we frown on that practice, and it is against the law for anyone other than the electric provider to tamper with it.

I don't want to come across as preaching, but I do know that pulling a meter out of the socket can be dangerous. Please be carefull

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charles(mo)

03-21-2007 03:52:21




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to charles(mo), 03-20-2007 18:35:50  
What I am saying is, yes, the fire department cannot pull the meter.

If we get a call to disconnect because of fire, we send a lineman that is on stand-by. Responce is under an hour. We are a cooperative, member owned utility and when there is an outage, we respond immediately. There is 3 lineman on stand-by 24-7. One in each of our service areas.

I don't know if this is the best policy, but it is the way it is at our coop. Also I have never heard anything negative about this subject.

The reason I posted in the first place, was just to say how it is here in s.e.mo. I have seen meter bases where the lugs and clamps have broken off the box when the meter was pulled. This happens alot with the old 60amp services that have range cable for service entrance.

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paul

03-22-2007 10:30:26




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to charles(mo), 03-21-2007 03:52:21  
I appreciate your input, but I sure am glad I don't live under your electric company or fire dept! Wow, let everything burn an hour waiting for a line-man....

Barn fire I saw, fire co came & while setting up the truck & hose, ladder went up & overhead lines to barn was cut with insulated wire cutters. Took 60 seconds, not 60 minutes. They actually saved some critters, and kept it from spreading to other buildings. Water 7 electric don't mix, you know.

Can't imagine anyone waiting an hour..... Sheez. What a poor policy.

--->Paul

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tech4

03-20-2007 19:53:10




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to charles(mo), 03-20-2007 18:35:50  
I am glad the fire department did not wait a day for the power company to pull my meter as the house was burning from lightning hit and the house was locked while I was at work. By the way many cities require an outside shutoff now just for that reason.



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dan hill

03-21-2007 05:26:37




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to tech4, 03-20-2007 19:53:10  
Ive pulled a lot of meters while on the fire dept.Waiting an hour for a line man puts fire men at risk.During a housefire in a nearby town they shut off power at the sub station and left four towns with out power.With so many new phones dependent on ac power this put many people at risk.It would have made far more sense to pull the house meter.The only exposes two hot terminals versus a whole house full of hot wires.I would have an electrican change the main box.Ask what the cost would be and set the money aside.Be aware the most Ins. co. will not insure a building with fuses ,they want circuit breakers.I have done alot of wiring over the years but will not touch a main box change over.

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Davis In SC

03-20-2007 19:00:56




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to charles(mo), 03-20-2007 18:35:50  
So, you are saying, if there is a fire, due to an electrical problem.. the FD cannot pull the meter???



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TimWafer

03-20-2007 18:09:51




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Well, Lets just say Ive done it a few times with no reprecussions. I even replaced a meter box that was bad once with the power to it on and without notifying anyone. Not recomended for the faint of heart though. Power company never has mentioned it to me. My Philosophy is "dont ask, dont tell" as long as your sure what your doing.



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Jim Broughton

03-20-2007 18:03:00




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
Fred: I don't know about PA laws, but here in Oregon you can get a wiring book(house,etc.) from Home Depot , etc. and then get a permit from your state/county to wire it yourself, subject to inspection upon completion. I wired my whole place that way,passed the inspection easily ! You might want to ask your inspector or clerk where you get your permit (take your how-to book with you) if there are any vagaries in the code for your area that you should know about. Last but not least, if you're gonna insure the place, then you have to go this route or hire an electrician !! Best of luck to you ! Jim B.

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tech4

03-20-2007 17:55:51




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I want go there about the safety since you seem determined. I had a fire at my house some years ago and the fire department pulled my meter during the fire. I had no problem getting the meter replaced with a new seal. Some years later I found a main wire rubbing a bolt in my box and I pulled the meter to make a repair and again I called the power company and told them that I had to remove the meter for safety fire reasons and they came out and put a lock on my meter. I called them back and told them if I had another fire and I could not pull the meter that I would sue the power company. They pulled the lock and put a lead seal back.

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Bill in NorthCentral PA

03-20-2007 17:47:00




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Fred in central PA, 03-20-2007 17:35:15  
I was told once that the homeowner could cut the seal and wire without cause for concern. I'd beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission in this case.

Bill



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old

03-20-2007 18:27:00




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Bill in NorthCentral PA, 03-20-2007 17:47:00  
This would not be telling the truth in your case but if they asked you just say you snelled smoke in your house and thought it was from a bad wire some place so you pulled the meter and then found out it was the wifes cooking. Whos to know other wise.



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D.B.in Mi.

03-20-2007 18:17:33




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to Bill in NorthCentral PA, 03-20-2007 17:47:00  
We did the same thing here. My brother in law electricion just cut the power company lock off the meter box and took the meter right out until he was done then put the meter back in and then put the lock back on so it looked like it was never tampered with.



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GeneMO

03-20-2007 21:03:43




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to D.B.in Mi., 03-20-2007 18:17:33  
Pulled lots of meters in my days. But that was years ago. Now with the remote reading meters they would probably have all sorts of light and bells going off. Call your elec. supplier.

Want to know one reason I pulled the meter?

Mom and Dad went to church. I was alone, tinkering out at the shop. Sparrow landed on elec. feed going to the shop. Decided to shoot it off the wire with my dad's .35 Remington. Since it was sighted in at 100 yards with a scope, it hit low at the 8 yard mark. Shot the wire in two. Pulled the meter and let down the wires and spliced the wire before they came back from church. That was 30 years ago. My dad died 4 years ago and I never told him. I now confess.


Gene

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jeffcat

03-22-2007 21:05:41




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 Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to GeneMO, 03-20-2007 21:03:43  
Gene you are funny! I did that to the main feed into the farm with a HUGE old white oak ....a.. and a chainsaw. I DIDN't get away with it but the insurance payed!Do we ever learn? Jeffcat



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buickanddeere

03-21-2007 07:10:55




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 Me too Re: Electric service do it yourself in reply to GeneMO, 03-20-2007 21:03:43  
Something similar. I was shooting starlings off the 60AMP tri-plex which ran to an old shed. A .22 was enough to cut one of the aluminum line conductors. The service box was jumpered to just use 120V. It's been ok for the past 25 years. I still look up and see the taped wire ends and wonder how I could have been so dim witted.



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