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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels

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mud

03-07-2007 15:25:28




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Been seeing 6.2 Humvee engines being auctioned by the govt. They are crated up. Anybody know if these will mate up to GM pickups with a manual tranny? Thanks - mud




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jdemaris

03-08-2007 05:21:42




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 Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to mud, 03-07-2007 15:25:28  
Yes, the military 6.2s are basically the same as civilian - i.e. same blocks, cranks, heads, etc. It's the outside bolt-on stuff that differs, e.g. 24 volt starter and injection pump solenoid, glow-plugs, exhaust manifolds, crank pulley, etc. Many of the injection pumps are a bit more durable than civilian if they were ordered with the Stanadyne "Arctic Parts" package. I've got the full list of pump part #s that tells if a pump has the kit or not. Keep in mind that the average lifespan of a 6.2 or 6.5 (both engines basically the same) - in Iraq and Afghanastan is around 1000 miles. Many of those surplus engines for sale have been overheated and beat to death. Not all - but how are you going to know before buying? I've had chances to buy them 100 at a time for $50 each.

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JoeBob/IN

03-09-2007 04:28:53




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to jdemaris, 03-08-2007 05:21:42  
Why is the lifespan only 1000 miles? Cause usually by then they probably blown up or tore up so bad they have to be used for salvage parts to fix another in like condition. Just my guess anyways. Not sure about the 6.2's but some of the 6.5 blocks are different than the civilivan models by being cast much better. Some of the civilian models were cast thinner in spots to save weight and money which lead to cracks in the block. And all military have manual IP's while the 94 and newer civilian had electronic IP's. Other than that basically identical except the 24v systems. Oh, and the military versions are detuned.

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jdemaris

03-09-2007 05:20:24




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to JoeBob/IN, 03-09-2007 04:28:53  
All the 6.2s use mechanical injection systems - regardless if civilian or military. And, all the first year 6.5s were mechancial also. After that, the military 6.5s kept the mechancial pumps but with bigger plungers, whereas civilian uses the new DS4 pumps.

In regard to the thicker blocks - it had nothing to do with military use. Around 92 and 93 - the same block was being used for the 6.2s and 6.5s - and it was cast thicker - civilian or military. That's when the 14022660 block (1982-1991) was dropped, and the thicker 10149599 block was used in both the 6.2s and 6.5s. The new block also uses a new crankshaft with a one-piece rear main seal. After the #599 block was changed again - to 12552929, 10237141, and 12555506 - it was cast thinner - in all applications. The new 6.5 blocks - being made now - for anybody who has the money - e.g. marine use, military Humvee, etc. - are the thickest and also have the highest nickel content. Also, the main-cap bolts are different to prevent block-cracking at the main-bearing webs. These new blocks are being cast by Remy-International - same company that casts the Ford-Navistar diesel blocks. Also, with the military 6.2s - they were not detuned. They had the fuel delivery rates turned up a little higher than civilian models - and rated torque and horsepower were exactly the same as the J-code civilian 6.2s. But, the military used a lot of 6.5 blocks to replace 6.2s - and those 6.5s were considered "detuned" to match the characteristics of the 6.2s they were replacing. Again - in regard to many failing a 1000 miles - it has a lot to do with the extreme overload caused by the armour added - and being driven in high heat and sandy conditions. Number one failure issue was - and still is - the Stanadyne injection pumps.

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JoeBob/IN

03-09-2007 12:41:10




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to jdemaris, 03-09-2007 05:20:24  
To my understanding from my step dad, who used to be a drive instructor/tech at the Chippewa Proving Grounds in about 1998 when the civilian models were crackin blocks along the rear cylinder, I believe #8 the military ones were not. Due to the (fact) that the military spec'd blocks were not shaved to save weight. He is also the one who told me that they were having drivibility issues since some of the Humvees were so detuned it wasn't funny. Maybe the detuned ones were only the models going to the deserts due to the intense heat, I don't know. I am gonna take a stab at the IP failures too. I guess that most were actually still good internally but it was a sensor or other electronic device that failed. Problem is that most places don't work on diesels so the entire IP was replaced under warranty or not. We just went through this with my dads '95. Acted up so he took it in (against my advice) and they first claimed it was the computer... new 'puter and still no go. Claimed the IP was at fault and wanted $2500! No way. It spit and sputtered till the SES light came on then ran decent. I assumed it to be electronic and I was right. $200 later, a used pump from E-bay with a good optical sensor, and 45 mins or labor gave us a good pump again.

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jdemaris

03-09-2007 13:13:58




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to JoeBob/IN, 03-09-2007 12:41:10  
The rear cylinder cracking problem was bolt-hole depth related and happened in the military and civlian versions. The more serious problem - more common with the older 6.2 blocks - it the block cracking at the main-bearing webs. According to GM and the US Army, there is no such thing as a "military spec." block - but the accessories are. In regard to the Humvees - they were the opposite of detuned. The military tried to boost the power to cope with all the added weight from added armour. I have the fuel-delivery specs for every miltary 6.2 and 6.5 used - and they are never less than civilian, usually more. For example, a 1990 6.2 in a Humvee pumped a max. fuel charge of 50-51 mm3/stroke. A 1990 civilian highest-output 6.2 (J-code) was set at 48.5 mm3/stroke (less then the military) In regard to the high-rate of failures of injection pumps - the military versions don't have the sensors that often fail on civilian 6.5s with DS4 pumps. The failures are all mechancal - due to very hot engines, hot air, and thin JP8 or Jet A1 military fuel. For the Humvees in Iraq, extra money was spend on the Stanadyne optional thin-fuel "arctic" package - and according to tests - it made no difference. Any pump that has "1.2 cSt" stamped on it has the kit. Here are portions of a couple of articles that addressed this in the past (not my writing).

" . . With the recent major combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, fuel-related problems have
increased significantly as a result of using low-viscosity fuels as the single fuel. In Afghanistan,
much of the aviation kerosene that initially was procured was Russian TS1 aviation kerosene
because the neighboring refineries produce aviation kerosene as TS1 instead of Jet A1 or JP8.
The Russian TS1 aviation kerosene is similar to Jet A1, but it is more volatile because it has a
lower flash point and a lower viscosity.
The fuel being used in Iraq is JP8. However, in both Afghanistan and Iraq, the ground vehicles
and equipment are being used much more extensively than they would be used in normal
service. Considering this added use, the hot temperatures that typically prevail in the Middle
East, and the increasing engine-power demands imposed by the increased weights of up-armor
kits, it is no wonder that the ground vehicles and equipment that have rotary-distribution,
fuel-injection pumps have had many fuel-related engine problems. "

And another:

" July 2004 issue of National Defense magazine, Army Ponders New Diesel Engine for Humvee
Trucks," notes that maintenance nightmares have been experienced in Iraq because engines
regularly break down and often must be replaced after only 1,000 to 2,000 miles of operation.
Much of the blame for this is placed on the bolted-on armor protection that adds weight to the
vehicles. However, the inability of the rotary-distribution, fuel-injection pumps to operate
satisfactorily for sustained periods of heavy-duty operation is probably a contributing factor,
especially when low-viscosity fuel is used in a hot environment. Interestingly, the fuel-injection
pumps in many, if not all, of the HMMWVs operating in Southwest Asia have been retrofitted
with Stanadyne's Arctic Fuel Conversion Retrofit Kit. This kit apparently has done little to offset
the significant increases in maintenance that have been experienced recently. Combat operations that occur in higher temperature environments certainly will intensify the
operational and maintenance problems of diesel-powered vehicles and equipment with
fuel-lubricated fuel-injection pumps. Since almost half of the Army's diesel vehicles and
equipment have rotary-distribution, fuel-injection pumps, a solution is urgently needed. "

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JoeBob/IN

03-10-2007 05:31:51




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to jdemaris, 03-09-2007 13:13:58  
Interesting reading. I will have to double check with my step dad but I know he said some of the H1's were being detuned. I don't think there were any military spec'd blocks just ones that didn't have any material shaved off like some of the later year civilian engines did. Just had a thought! All the engines were cast the same the difference is that civilians were actually shaved after casting while the military were not. That would answer why there are no military spec'd blocks since originally they are all the same.

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jdemaris

03-10-2007 06:28:33




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to JoeBob/IN, 03-10-2007 05:31:51  
You've got me stumped with the "shaving" of blocks. Shave where? The 1994 and newer blocks were cast thinner - not shaved -and that is what made them crack-prone. Then, GM tried to put a band-aid on some of those cracking problems. The rear #8 cylinders would crack because of an improperly drilled cylinder-head bolt-hole. The main-bearing webs were cracking due to the outer bolts in the four-bolt main-caps being too large. So, GM put 10 mm bolts on the outside instead of the former 12 mm bolts to increase the strength.

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bva

03-08-2007 14:16:17




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to jdemaris, 03-08-2007 05:21:42  

1000 miles average life span. what is causin this? Maby the military should give up on humv and just use regular dealer showroom vehicles. Would pay for the war in a few months.



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jdemaris

03-08-2007 19:06:40




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 Re: Same as civilian 6.2 in reply to bva, 03-08-2007 14:16:17  
I doubt that would work. The problem is - especially in Iraq, is the Humvees are extremely overloaded with all the added armour being installed, the tempertaures are hot, and the JP8 military fuel thin. I don't think a "dealer's showroom" vehicle would last an hour with the same treatment.



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rex in mississippi

03-07-2007 17:52:06




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to mud, 03-07-2007 15:25:28  
oops 6.2 liter is the same



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rex in mississippi

03-07-2007 17:50:45




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to mud, 03-07-2007 15:25:28  
6.5 diesel has the standard chey bellhousing pattern--will need use 6.5 engine mounts



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midlam

03-07-2007 17:18:18




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to mud, 03-07-2007 15:25:28  
I agree with the other poster. Also they will be set up for the injection pumps, not EFI.



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Bob

03-07-2007 15:29:38




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to mud, 03-07-2007 15:25:28  
I can't think of any reason why there would be a problem.



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Gene Davis (GA)

03-07-2007 20:13:36




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to Bob, 03-07-2007 15:29:38  
Would expect that you will need to watch for 24 volt electrical parts and change them over to 12 volt for civilian stuff.



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TimS in Mo

03-07-2007 20:03:34




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to Bob, 03-07-2007 15:29:38  
Those are the most gutless wonders of any diesel engine...I have driven them in hummers a lot and in other gm trucks.....ugh.



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Ludwig

03-08-2007 13:19:38




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to TimS in Mo, 03-07-2007 20:03:34  
The 6.2 was intended as a replacement for the 305ci v8 if you're expecting it to pull against a 454 thats crazyness. If you're looking for an engine to get 20mpg in a fullsized 4x4 pickup they're good engines about 150hp.



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TimS in Mo

03-09-2007 19:49:57




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 Re: Mil. surplus 6.2 diesels in reply to Ludwig, 03-08-2007 13:19:38  
The injection pump failures due to the low lubricity of the jp8 was the main problem we had with hummers in iraq.

We went thru lots of the injection pumps and had several times that vehicles were out of commission as there were no new pumps to be had for our maintenance folks.



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