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shop insulation

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joel rand

03-07-2007 09:28:46




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My tractor restoration comes to a halt in the winter because the roof of my 30x50 Cleary building is not insulated. I could use some advice on cheap ways to insulate the roof. I have looked into spray on but it is cost prohibitive. My doors are 9' high, as are the roof trusses, so doing a steel ceiling will significantly cut down on the area that needs to be heated by my 160,000BTU LB white. The walls have regular kerf backed insulation held in place with barnboard siding. There are 4 roof trusses with incandescent light fixtures attached. One 9x16 overhead door with opener, one 9x16 slider that can be insulated with 2" foam board. There are 2 ridge vents. I was thinking about just placing 10' 2x4's at 3' intervals between the trusses then spaning regular 3' ribbed steel parallel to the trusses and blowing insulation on top. Will that be sufficient support? Where's the cheapest place to get steel? Cleary wanted $6,000 and I can do it myself, so I should. Unless someone lives near me and wants to come help. Thanks.

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NE IA Dave

03-08-2007 21:47:27




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
Joel, If you decide to do it yourself, you may want to consider a air or gas powered finish nailer. --Come on now guys read the rest before you rant! Our crew even on roofs or sidewalls we use a finish nailer with out nails to punch holes in the steel. All the screw companies make the statment that they have a aggressive tip, yet alot of them you must keep checking your drill as it seems it must be running backwards or some one cut the end off each screw when no one was looking. Now most of our guys can walk roofs better than a monkey and all, but once you chalk line it, we all conclude we can save time by punching holes in the steel. We use a Pasload with a rubber tip on the saftey as it does not skid on the steel so much, and has no hose to drag around.

Another word of advise is to make sure your 1/4" nut driver has a magnet, and is deep enough so it does not wobble (keep it cleaned out) Spend a little extra and avoid the two hundred bit sets for $1.95 no China trinkets, as you pretty much get what you pay for. Many of the better 1/4inch nut drivers can be adjusted deeper with a 1/4" stem on another bit. Take the second bit --the part that goes into the drill and insert it into your 1/4" nut driver bit (socket end) and smack it with a hammer. Most tool dealers will tell you that this is not so, but it is for alot of them. However remember your screws could be 5/16 although seldom is this so unless you have a metal grid building.

Another thing to consider is if you decide to use visqueen for a moisture barrier, use clear because you can see the bottom cord of your truss better.

My mind wonders as I think about all the times I have been asked to fix a small avoidable problem with a do it youselfer project.

Make sure you put a nailer on the end wall truss--so you have something on the very end of your steel to screw to. Before--- you put the visqueen up. Be sure to make a mark on the face of the J chanel or framing closure so you can identify the center of your nailer after your sheet is in place. Although most companies for a need to cut down on inventory / overhead have discontinued the framming closure, and make a J chanel only. The framing closure has a full 2 inches of --J-- so your cuts do not have to be so perfect.

When installing J chanel or framing closure around the sidewall. It also needs something to nail to. Again before putting up the visqueen.

I sure do not intend to down play your skills, but if it is not ones daily work, it can be at times a some what less efficent project.

A sheet rock jack will make the job alot more enjoyable if you do not have a experianced crew and a lack of extra help. Some times the wife just can't hold it up very long while you screw the sheet on. Lay a longer 2 X 8 on top of the jack and wire it on before you set the steel sheets on if they are real long sheets.

Most folks do not know you can cut a sheet of steel lenght wise with nothing more than a sharp utility knife--IT will make a perfect cut, and is very easy to do.

J chanell, or framing closure can be nailed or stapled on with a roofing air nailer or roofing stapler.
If you blow insulation, you may want to mark your rafter webbing with a lumber crayon at the depth of your desired insulation. You can also just take a few scrap 1 X 2's or plaster lath cut to the correct depth and staple them to the bottom cord. Guaging the depth of insulation with a naked eye when blowing is very difficult to be accurate. Again do this before the visqueen is installed.

Using visueen can be argued to use / don't use by others, I will stay out of that one.

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joel rand

03-08-2007 12:57:14




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I wondered how to get above the ceiling when it was done. Thanks.



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Bill in NorthCentral PA

03-08-2007 12:09:29




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I put liner panel grade 29 gauge steel in and put the insulation on top. Trusses 4' o/c work great as the steel spans this very well. I put blown-in fiberglass on top of the ceiling, but if it were my own, I think I'd go with batt insulation as high as the bottom chord of the truss, and then top with another roll in the other direction. We usually just unscrew a gable end siding sheet to get in and then screw it back on when we're done.

Good luck,

Bill

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Shovelman

03-08-2007 04:43:42




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
Joel,

We did the ceiling in our shop with metal roofing and blown-in insulation overhead a few years ago and it has worked out very well. We got the roofing panels from Home Depot (special order) and had a local insulating company blow in 16 inches of celluose.

My son and I hung the panels in a day, working off staging since the ceiling height is 16 feet. Cost of the panels was $630 and insulation was about $1200 for a 32 x 38 area. It heats easily - on average it takes about 100 gals of oil per year to heat it.

Our trusses were on 24 inch centers, so loading wasn"t a problem. I would check with an engineer or truss manufacturer regarding your situation just to be safe. Our trusses came from a local lumber company who has an engineer on staff and helped us with all our load calculations and design.

Good luck,
Scott

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JerryU

03-08-2007 04:21:19




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I have been reading with interest. I have a 30 X 40 pole barn with metal siding, concrete floor, osb roof deck and shingled roof. My question on the roof insulation is that I always thought you couldn't put insulation tight under the deck or your shingles would curl. At least in a house. Different because of no attic in the barn? If that is the case, I will just stuff fiberglass between the rafters.

The walls, if and when I get that far I will probably use foam as we flood sometimes and the fiberglass will get wet.

I am in SE Mich.

JU

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T_Bone

03-07-2007 22:03:58




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
Hi Joel,

I just wactched a Building program on TV about a new roof insulation. I didn't catch the product brand name but from what I seen, I really don't think that may be important.

The sheeting apparred to be 1/2" fiberglass with aluminum foil on both sides. The inside AL was smooth where the outside AL was a ruff finish.

The test was two boxes, one made from the insulation and one made from 1/2"ply with a heat lamps installed inside the boxes.

What the test showed was the outside of the insulation (this would be the covering to the inside of the building) was at 61º and the 1/2"plywood box was at 151º or very low heat gain/loss for the insulation.

The mfg rep did state it makes a huge difference which AL side faces to the inside of the building. The extremely smooth AL side faces to the inside of the building.

There was no suggested retail cost discussed. That says it's probably very expensive.

On the other hand I didn't buy the mfg rep's therory of the huge difference increase of the differnet AL sides. I would want to run my own simular tests on simular existing products that are already made now.

T_Bone

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george md

03-08-2007 11:34:38




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to T_Bone, 03-07-2007 22:03:58  
Tbone,

About 2 months ago we were doing the research on that type ins for my buddy with the truck crane. He built a shop and needs to insulate it . He found a company in co. called insulation4less , they spout off all the ways that their product will stop radiant heat , but there is absolutely no mention of convection heat . A mirror will reflect radiant heat ( sunshine),
but is a poor insulator for the heat in the air. The reverse is thue for a thermo pane window , it doesn't pass much of the heat from within the house , but passes the radiant heat ( sun) from out side quite well. For that thin panel to be effective , it will need to be used with a good standard insulation.

george

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Dusty

03-07-2007 16:58:08




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
On my Morton building the roof boards are 2X4's on edge on 18" centers. I took 3 1/2" fiber glass X 22 1/2" cut 16 1/2" and tucked between the 2X4's held in place with string stapled to the bottom of 2X4's. Then nailed 1" thick foil faced Thermax to the bottom of 2X4's. Works well.



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msb

03-07-2007 12:18:59




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
29 gauge white painted steel spanning trusses 8'on center with 13" of cellulose insulation blown in ---R 30+. 40'X 56 ' building for a little less than $3,000. central In. Now if my back would only let me finish the job.



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Mattlt

03-08-2007 03:38:14




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to msb, 03-07-2007 12:18:59  
Did you have any problems with the steel sagging? I want to sheet off the ceiling in my shop, but the 8' truss span is scaring me.



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msb

03-08-2007 09:00:23




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to Mattlt, 03-08-2007 03:38:14  
No . its quite a common practice.Just screw the ajoining panels every 8"-10" for support to lock them together.



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Mattlt

03-08-2007 09:23:19




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to msb, 03-08-2007 09:00:23  
That makes sense. Guess I never thought of screwing the sheets together. That should make the whole works nice and tight.

Thanks for the advice!



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Blackhole 49

03-07-2007 11:49:16




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I did my 24' X 40' in 2002. My rafters were on 4' centers so ladder them with 2X4s every 32" and used 4" fiberglass insulation. I found used 7/16 OSB for a $1.00 a sheet and thats what I used for the walls and cieling. Just wish I would have painted it before I moved everything back in. We live in south east MI and I keep the shop at 50 and turn up when I'm in there. I heat with a 125,000 btu natural gas radiant tube heater. It costs about $300.00 a year to heat.

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IH2444

03-07-2007 11:14:31




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I got lucky and got a bunch of suspended ceiling stuff free, works great. The fiberglass 2x4 panels are lite and insulate pretty good. My insurance agent liked the flame retardant aspect of the fiberglass panels.



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RickL

03-07-2007 10:14:53




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I am doing same project right now,Insulating then lining wityh tin seconds. My only problem is I figure wrong ( imagine that) have way more of it than need. this stuff looks same as new anybody want some 1.50ft for it. have bunch of 31ft stuff real dark green Nice



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SuperA-Tx

03-07-2007 10:09:07




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
What about waffer board? You would need the 2X4's on 2 foot centers. Might not even need insulation with the waffer board. Attach with dry wall screws.



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JDB

03-07-2007 10:07:13




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I used R19 insulation in my shop ceiling then coverend the underside with white tin.
The tin is called liner panel and i got it from Mcelroy metals. Shop seams to hold heat well and the white panels make the interior lighter.



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neblinc

03-07-2007 10:02:27




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
Take a look at this forum
Link

And this awesome thread
Link

My shop pics still in progress
http://homepage.mac.com/randysweb/Menu7.html



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jml755

03-08-2007 06:31:22




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to neblinc, 03-07-2007 10:02:27  
nice chronology pix of your building. I'm putting up a pole barn (36x72) this summer and always looking for pix online to pick up ideas. nice job.



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RustyFarmall

03-07-2007 09:33:45




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 Re: shop insulation in reply to joel rand, 03-07-2007 09:28:46  
I need to do the same thing in my Morton building. I'll be watching this thread for good ideas.



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