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siphon keeps going

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Stan in Oly, WA

03-05-2007 11:13:57

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I have a container that collects water which is generated by condensation from a dehumidifier. This container is fixed in its location. When the dehumidifier is in use I drain the water out of the container by siphoning it into a bucket and emptying the bucket when necessary. Even though the siphon will drain the upper container quickly and the dehumidifier fills it slowly and runs only intermittently, if I forget to empty the bucket it will eventually run over.

I understand how a siphon works but I do not understand how it can drain the water from the upper container and then restart itself later. The hose runs over the top of the upper container so it's not a case of the water level ever getting higher than the point where the hose turns down. The upper container is opaque so I can't see the location of that end of the hose or the water level when the siphoning stops. I assume it keeps siphoning until it starts drawing air. The discharge end of the hose is underwater after it has siphoned a small amount of water. I assume that also has something to do with it, but I can't figure out what.

This is a question about what makes the siphon restart. Please, no suggestions about how to make a less stupid system; I already know how to do that---I just have to get around to it.

Stan

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KEB

03-05-2007 20:57:32

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 11:13:57

Once the water is at the same level in both containers, the siphon action will simply keep the water levels the same. If that occurs before the water level in the collection tank drops below the level of the end of the hose, it'll never suck air to break the siphon. If you want the sipon to stop automatically, just make sure the end of the hose in the upper container is higher than the maximum water level you want in the bucket.

Keith

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tech4

03-05-2007 14:25:58

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 11:13:57

The siphon will never draw air as long as there is no pump action. The siphon action will stop when the level in the top container is almost to the level of the input of the siphon hose. As soon as enough water gets back in the top container the siphon action continues. To draw air you would have to empty the bottom container. I have a very similar set-up and I eliminated the pump. You need an overflow on the bottom container and problem solved.

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bjb in Ne

03-05-2007 11:30:43

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 11:13:57

In order for a siphon to break, air has to be let into the system. Depending on the relative water levels it is possible to maintain the airless system and the siphon. A siphon will only go until the relative water levels are equal. If it is possible to have the same relative water level in the input and discharge containers, the siphon will not be broken so when you put more water into the input container the siphon re-equalizes the water levels until the output bucket overflows. The siphon doesn't actually restart itself, it never was stopped.

Is there a reason you don't just empty one container into another? The dehumidifier should shut off automatically when its container is full.

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Stan in Oly, WA

03-05-2007 13:39:05

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to bjb in Ne, 03-05-2007 11:30:43

Hi bjb,

The bottom of the upper container is about 6" above the top of the lower container. Doesn't the siphon keep siphoning until it moves all the water out of the upper container and begins to draw air? Then doesn't the weight of the water in the lower end of the tube draw the remaining water in the tube into the lower container? I could understand how the siphoning would continue (rather than restart) if there was some reason for it to be interrupted while the end in the upper container was still in water. But what would be the mechanism that would stop it while there was still water to be siphoned?

I don't simply empty the upper container into the lower one because it is not movable, and the float shutoff switch on the dehumidifier is broken. (I have simplified my description of the complete installation because it is not relevant to the issue of the physics of siphoning. The basic configuration of the relevant components is as I describe it while the setup and function of the whole system is more complicated.)

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Stan

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Jim K

03-06-2007 11:33:53

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 13:39:05

OK!let me take a stab at it. In my experience with dehumidifiers and air conditioning condensate drains, is that they always get plugged up with gunk due to the unit also pulling dust out of the air. My guess would be that you had a temporary blockage, and yes you can break the siphon action on a hose (lift it out of the water) for a split second or two depending on the length of the siphon hose and the weight of the water falling will start the siphon action over again.
Just for giggles put a bucket some place high(step ladder or workbench) other bucket on the floor get a siphon going and see how long you can pull the upper hose out of the bucket before you have to stick it back in. Start off doing it very quickly and gradualy increase the time that you let it draw air before you actually lose the siphon action.
Jim K

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bjb in NE

03-05-2007 13:49:29

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 13:39:05

The siphon should draw in air based on your description and stop. Does the water level in the upper container ever get higher than the highest point in the siphon? That would be one way that it might start itslef. Also how do you empty the lower container after it gets full? More information about your entire setup (dimensions, other part, pictures) may be useful because something you dont think is related may have a cause and effect relationship.

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Mike M

03-05-2007 11:22:25

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Re: siphon keeps going in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 03-05-2007 11:13:57

Well I guess you just have helpfull ghosts with good suction ?

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