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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Supports for relocated pole barn

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D13

01-28-2007 06:31:15




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I have built up my clay "swamp" (the water is over the grass in a wet spring) with 2' of sand fill in anticipation of building a pole barn (needed some drainage). If we were to build we would need 2' taller posts to be sure of getting solid loading below the sand. I found a complete pole barn on a house mover's lot, roughly 30x30. The posts were sawed off at ground level. The batten boards need replacing so the posts could be shortened just below the steel if needed.
If I buy the building and have it moved to my site (it comes all assembled), what would I use to support it? I have a local perma-column distributor but they are $$$ (need 15 of them). Could I just put in 6' stubs of treated? Do I st the bases then put the barn on them (hoping for good alignment) and cut the posts to match the height? Or drill the holes, slide the posts in, then position the barn , trim the barn posts to the correct height, bolt them together, then lower the whole thing?

Any previous experience?

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D13

01-29-2007 04:04:25




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
First off, many thanks for the feedback.

The drainage cannot be modified, I'm on a giant flat clay pan that falls less than 1' in my 1400' property line. The only two spots that don't have standing water in the spring are my house and elevated septic.

6" concrete footings below the pole are mandatory here, as is at least 4' below ground (fronst line is 32-34"). My inderstanding is that we also are backfilling with gravel.

Good comments about the bracing. Question though - if Permacolumns are used in a new construction, do they do extra bracing on the upper? Since they essentially build on the top of the column.

As far as cost effectiveness that was why I asked, trying to get a handle on what would be needed. Looks like it might be easier to just build fresh.

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paul

01-29-2007 09:48:56




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-29-2007 04:04:25  
>if Permacolumns are used in a new construction, do they do extra bracing on the upper?

What you need dfor a pole barn is a solid, non-flexing stick from 4+ feet in the ground to the top of the roof.

If there is a joint anywhere, it needs to be at least as strong, & resist flexing as much as, a regular pole all the way top to bottom.

Permacolumns have a pretty stout U metal that fixes the top pole to the bottom concrete.

If you do your own backyard engineering, you need to make sure this attachment is equally as strong. Overlapping new pole to old pole with bolts will do this. If you have a weaker joint, you need to brace the top of the building so it doesn't flex.

--->Paul

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Bill in NorthCentral PA

01-28-2007 13:16:55




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
I'd look at improving drainage (swales, etc.) and then the monolithic slab idea. I wouldn't like the joined column idea in my building.

Good Luck,

Bill



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rpllr

01-28-2007 10:01:58




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
Dig a hole below frost footing and poor a large footing like 2'square or bigger. use rebar and sono tubes to poor a pier to ground level to set the posts on. They shoud be tied to the post with anchors buried in the concrete, and more cross bracing will need to be placed in the building for support.



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paul

01-28-2007 09:30:12




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
Did you put drainage in also, to get rid of the wet spot? Otherwise poor location.

You can use pressure treated, they need to overlap the current posts & bolt on to each other. Probably 4-6 foot of overlap, so you might need 12' pressure treated - 6 in the ground, 6 sticking out. You need the lateral strength - can't just set the cut poles on top of new stubs.

With the wet location, I'd sure want the permacolumns. Pressure treated will rot off anyhow. Seems I see that a lot with the new wood, esp with your location.

--->Paul

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jwal10

01-28-2007 09:25:32




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
Depends if you can bury posts and still have enough post to get heighth you want, if so dig holes larger than normal pour cement in bottom to keep posts from sinking, then set posts, here we use crushed rock to set posts.It is wet and if cemented they rot at top of cement, rock will drain & dry out. If you want heighth, dig out holes deep enough to get to solid ground below frost line, pour cement pillars a little above finished grade with heavy anchors for posts.We put several layers of tar paper between cement and bottom of posts, especially when posts are cut at bottom, the treatment doesn't soak in as much as end grain does. Remember you will not have posts in ground for lateral support so will need more bracing.Check price of pole barn kits to see if it is cost effective. GOOD LUCK.....James

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jdemaris

01-28-2007 08:22:28




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to D13, 01-28-2007 06:31:15  
I've had plenty of experience with building pole barns in wet areas - and I wouldn't consider drilling post holes. You need a good size footing at the bottom with a diameter a lot larger than a 6" X 6" pole. If really soft - I will dig out the hole bottom an put in concrete pads with laterial supports - e.g. rebar, or any other steel scraps I have laying around. Last one I did, I used cut-up railroad tracks since I got a mountain load of them for free. A three foot pad will resist sinking much better than a 6" pole.
I also done a few - that even below the frost line - 5' deep - it was still way too soft - and I drove in 4 or 5 foot rods vertically and then put the pad over it. Sort of a small scale "pile driving." In regard to the rest - many new pole barns are now built with scabbed together rot-resistant wood just at the bottom and are often pieced together 2" x 6"s. They usually tend to stay straighter than solid 6" X 6"s because of each board having its own grain. If you go to buy any PT lumber - read the label closely. The newer ACQ type treatment is more costly than the older copper-arsenate stuff and they often skimp on it. Make sure whatever you buy is rated at "below ground" and not just "ground contact." In my local lumber yards, only the poles 12' or longer have the proper treatment - 8 and 10 footers do not. The older copper-arsenate stuff is still legal for commercial and farm use - but I can't find anyone selling it anymore.

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MikeinKy

01-28-2007 08:55:57




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 08:22:28  
Pour a slab and set the posts on top. It will probably last longer that way anyway. You can use angle iron and concrete anchors to keep them in position.



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jdemaris

01-28-2007 09:17:23




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 Re: Supports for relocated pole barn in reply to MikeinKy, 01-28-2007 08:55:57  
That would not work here in NY where we sometimes get temps of 20 below F. Not unless the building was heated and the perimeter of the slab was five-feet thick - or five feet deep below ground surface level. Anything above the frost line is going to move every year when the ground freezes. The poles, here, have to be at least five feet down below the frost line.



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jdemaris

01-28-2007 09:21:32




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 Correction to m post in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 09:17:23  
What I meant was five feet deep and below the frost line - which IS five feet. Five feet BELOW the frost line would be ten feet - which would not only be silly - it would be impossible around here without dynamite or a jackhammer.



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