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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

emergency generator backfeeding

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bill mar

01-28-2007 04:36:37




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I know its been discussed a few times before,but why is it dangerous to backfeed a generator through an electrical outlet.(I understand the danger in a cord with double male plugs).why wont flipping your main breaker isolate your system from the grid.Isnt it standard policy for the linemen to somehow ground/safety themselfs from stray voltage?thanks




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raytasch-TN

01-30-2007 07:41:56




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
So how is the backfeed problem addressed by the utility companies where I am producing my own power, diverting excess into the grid and being paid for it?
Just hypothetical!



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Bob

01-30-2007 08:00:27




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to raytasch-TN, 01-30-2007 07:41:56  
When you are set up to pump power back into the grid, there is a synchronous invertor, or other electronic do-dad that can tell when the utility "goes down", and disconnects your equipment from it.



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JT

01-29-2007 07:37:22




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
From what i have been told, if you just flip the breaker, the breaker can have a hairline crack in it that can still feed electrical current through the crack and still feed the line. don't know how, but I ahve heard it can happen. The best thing to do is to take the breakers out of the breaker box, then you will take a few less chances that way. If you were in dire straits, pull the meter out of the base and then you can hook up, the power company does not like it when you do that, but it is better than killing people in an emergency.

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dave guest

01-28-2007 17:24:30




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
One tenth of one amp can kill you. Carried out master electrician dead from 8 foot fluorescent light in 1980. Smoke was coming out of his nose and mouth. Little kids and a wife asking why. Always worked with gloves, today he forgot. Following all safety procedures at the time. GM detroit. Another electrician who will never forget. Think safety like your life depends on it.



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jdemaris

01-29-2007 06:28:47




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to dave guest, 01-28-2007 17:24:30  
I know of several deaths that occurred when I worked as a lineman, an also when my father worked as a lineman and crew foreman. He worked for the power company from 1938 to 1983 and saw just about every type of accident you could imagine. Things have changed a lot, and gotten much safer - even when compared from the late 1960s to now. You don't seen many lineman wearing spikes anymore and climbing. I witnessed a guy who was grounded and made contact with a 13,000 volt high-line. We used to work on them live from a fiberglass bucket. But, he leaned against a green, wet tree while making contact with a hot line. He got badly burned and lost use of most of his right arm, but it did not kill him. Most of the deaths that I am aware of - with power line maintainance were low-voltage, 60 cycle - 120 VAC. I'm generalizing of course, but often high voltage burns, low voltage kills by screwing up the electrical waves/patterns that control your heartbeat. We used to get fined, i.e. our paycheck cut if we got caught violating safety standards - like working without gloves, not wearing our insulating sleeves, etc. On a hot summer day, we'd sometimes take them off - if high in a bucket where nobody could see. My dad had a guy get crippled by a high voltage flash -who was high up in a bucket. He had taken off his insulating sleeves. My dad was the foreman and was held repsonsible - even though he did not know the guy had done it. My dad's pay was docked for a year.

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jdemaris

01-28-2007 08:35:14




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
It's not legal anymore, but if done properly it is safe. A 50 amp cable backfed to a 50 amp welder outlet often works fine to run the essentials. Of course, there is always the chance of human error - on your part - or on the lineman's part. In regard to the lineman being in danger?? In my area, they are required to treat any line as hot and install a ground clamp on it before touching it. I was a lineman 40 years ago - and at that time - we were also required to treat all lines as hot. Can't say I always did it - but I WAS supposed to. I've heard the fears of the ground not being disconnected by the main breaker. I fail to see the danger in that. The household main panel is connected to it's own ground system. And, every utility pole with a step-down transformer also has it's own ground system. Many older transfer switches do not break ground. Also if a homeowner screws up - and the main breaker gets closed - and his - let's say 8000 watt generator backfeeds to the utility line - which is hooked to hundreds, if not thousands of households demanding current - it would burn up or trip the genset pretty fast. My rural power lines are 4800 VAC - and would suck a small portably generator dry pretty fast. Yes, there could be a line down - and no longer connected to the main grid - that you might accidentally energize. That would be human error on your part. And, if any lineman worked on it with disregard - it's human error on his/her part. Our society seems determined to get rid of human error - but since humans are doing the correcting - seems it will always be flawed.

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Jerry/MT

01-28-2007 19:27:44




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 08:35:14  
great reply!!!



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buickanddeere

01-28-2007 19:02:15




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to jdemaris, 01-28-2007 08:35:14  
No, no, no it's not the ground. People can't seem to tell the difference between the neutral and ground. The ground is never, never, ever switched in any application anywhere. Generators or anything else. And switching neutrals is rare and applies almost exclusively to generator/alternate power supply transfer switching With generators with the chassis/ground bonded with the neutral. And that's almost every portable standby generator we are talking about. Large gen sets and pto generators usually do not bond their chassis/ground to the neutral. The bonded generators require a three pole transfer switch to transfer the neutral as well as the two lines. The non bonded generators require only a transferring the two live lines. The neutral stays as is. So cranking up the bonded 5000W Honda and back feeding into the four wire clothes dryer plug is bad enough. And just opening the two pole main will cause current to flow in the ground circuit. And should we even wade into the topic of people trying to run 120/240 loads via a back feed through two lines and the ground in a welding receptacle? That's two steps worse careless and negligence. Ask the hydro inspector if even a two pole transfer switch is ok with a bonded generator? As for smart people with double male ended power cords and remembering to switch the main. Checkout the number of smoked generators coming back to shops burned out for warranty work. And ask you local utility line man about what's an ok generator connection. As for those people who don't prepare for power outages. Tough luck. We can't help people who have miss placed priorities or are in denial. How is it all these rank amateur home electrical tinkerers know more than the people who write the code book. And they know more than the hydro inspector and linemen?

Link

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bill mar

01-28-2007 21:32:14




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to buickanddeere, 01-28-2007 19:02:15  
Link thank you for the link. bill m.



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Ryan - WI

01-28-2007 05:25:13




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
Flipping your main breaker does isolate you from the incoming lines. The reason I see as it being a problem is that the wire running from that outlet to the panel is not heavy enough to carry all the current your generator will put out. Sounds like a good way to burn the house/shed/barn down to me. You wouldn't use 10/3 as the main drops to the box would you?



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dan hill

01-28-2007 12:56:42




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-28-2007 05:25:13  
You cant run a house with a 5000 watt generator.Running the furnace and keeping freezers and refrigerators cold are the main items to feed with an emergency generator.Your furnace should have a good 20 amp plug and outlet.Use a good #12 extension from the generator to the furnace.Your cant start many motors with a 5k generator.You can pump water or run lights while powering a fridge or freezer.A small engine running at 3600 rpm will use a lot of oil.you will have to check the oil each time the gas tank is filled.

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the Unforgiven

01-29-2007 20:29:24




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to dan hill, 01-28-2007 12:56:42  
Hey dan, I went 18 days on a 5000W running continuous, lp gas boiler and clothes dryer, ran the well, sewer pump, pretty much everything but microwave. Was real surprised it worked as well as it did. Converted the generator to lp, was changing oil at 80-100 hours and needed NO oil added in between. Briggs Vangaurd 9hp engine, really pleased with it's performance.



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dan hill

01-31-2007 04:04:41




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to the Unforgiven, 01-29-2007 20:29:24  
Friend blew a new generator engine when oil got low.They are called emergency generators for a good reason.My sawmill engine will shut down on low oil.



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buickanddeere

01-31-2007 15:22:21




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to dan hill, 01-31-2007 04:04:41  
Have to like those American made Generac units. They are economical in price, reliable, durable, fuel efficient and are equiped with an oil filter and low oil pressure shut down switch. That bargain line of Coleman units are best left on the store shelves. Thier premium units with the upgraded engines are OK.



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hay

01-28-2007 05:16:00




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 04:36:37  
no, i'm not an electrician and no, i'm not really sure why, but i think that it has to do with backfeeding into the grid system by way of the incoming wires from the power co transformer. if your producing power that is feeding into your breaker box then that would energize the entire circuit all the way to the electric company transformer and while it might not be a large amount of voltage, it's the amperage capacity that can kill a human. i don't know if the power co does require their workers to ground themselves, but i would not work on something that is being energized without first cutting off the power source.

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Bill of TN

01-28-2007 05:51:42




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to hay, 01-28-2007 05:16:00  
It isolates the main line, but not the ground.....which might be several poles down the street..... ground current can kill.....



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bill mar

01-28-2007 07:54:11




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to Bill of TN, 01-28-2007 05:51:42  
Car hit the pole 1/4 mile up the road and took out the power.I was worried that even with the main flipped in my breaker box that somehow power might make it to the transformer on the pole out side my house and somehow energize the line they were working on.I ran an extension cord to my wood burning furnace for heat during the three hour outage.thanks for the responses.



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dan hill

01-28-2007 13:08:45




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 Re: emergency generator backfeeding in reply to bill mar, 01-28-2007 07:54:11  
We had an 8 day outage in jan 98.Just disconnect your main breakers or fuses.Ice storms have been putting people in the dark all across the country.Very few people are prepared for loss of power.



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