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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

grid tied wind turbine

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dirtdigger

01-24-2007 08:10:33




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A few days ago, b&deere made mention of a grid tied electrial system. I've been interested in such a project and have been considering a home build wind turbine. The Breezy 5.5 at www.prairieturbines.com looks like a possible approach to think about. If I understand correctly, they use blades with a lot more surface area than most to get more production at lower wind speeds, and turn a lot slower than most other designs(sort of like our old water pumpers). There are a lot of smart electrical types on this site and I value everybody's opinion. What do you guys think?

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John in B-ton

01-25-2007 10:11:28




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
Check out otherpower.com there is a message board there and it is read and written by some very knowledgeable people. there is a google search feature on the discussion board, type in "grid tied" and read up on the information available in previous posts. if that doesn't answer your question, join the board and ask directly.



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buickanddeere

01-24-2007 15:39:57




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
ebay is loaded with venders of wind turbines and grid tie invertors. A high rpm modest dia permament magnet converted automotive Delco direct drive seems to be the best bang for the buck. Something that has the words slow or low speed in the name. Most have a rather clever designed six blade turbine about 6'-7' in dia. Over speed from high winds short of a huricane are ok. Larger dia does does make more power but the rpms drop,a $$$ stepup drive is required and high winds are a problem. K.I.S.S. Sunny Boy and X something or other are 2 of the 3 common manufactures of the tie invertors. The Chinese build some decent clones too. You really need 3 to 6 of these wind turbines to be worth while. Count on them making about 1/5 of their rated capacity when running. There are 12,24,36 and 48V hot water heater elements that thread into the bottom location of your home unit. The wind will supply the bulk of your hot water no problem.

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jdemaris

01-24-2007 16:17:07




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to buickanddeere, 01-24-2007 15:39:57  
I've worked with the Xantrex/Trace, Sunny Boy SMA, Outback, Fronius and Beacon grid-tie inverters - but never heard of a K.I.S.S. What is it and who makes it?



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buickanddeere

01-24-2007 19:09:37




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to jdemaris, 01-24-2007 16:17:07  
K.I.S.S.

Keep it Simple Stupid.



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jdemaris

01-25-2007 05:10:16




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to buickanddeere, 01-24-2007 19:09:37  
Duhh.. Here is was hoping K.I.S.S. stood for Kinectic Intertie Silly Systems or something.
Nice acronym. Next question - how the heck can you keep a grid-tie system simple? The words "simple" and "grid-tie" cannot co-exist. Look at the regs. sometimes that the power-companiies require to backfeed.



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buickanddeere

01-25-2007 18:50:07




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to jdemaris, 01-25-2007 05:10:16  
The grid tie invertors have protection & auto sync built in compared to just trying to parallel an AC alternator to the grid. The direct drive Delco PM units don't use slip rings. They just windup and spring back when the wind slows. No belts, pulleys, gear boxes, HD towers



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jdemaris

01-24-2007 13:45:14




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
If you going to hook into any sort of alternative power - grid-tie seems to be the only sensible way to go. That is, unless you are installing alternative power because none other is available. And wind power is more problematic than photovoltaic. Solar panels can be simply shorted out - even in full sun and they won't damage themselves. But - a wind-generator must have a place to send it's power. Often, electricity wasting heat-sinks have to be installed - to insure there is place for the power to go - in case you are not using it and the batteries are fully charged. The main problem is - with solar or wind power - is that often you make more power than you can use, while other times when you DO need it - the sun is not out and/or the wind is not blowing. With a full battery-bank system - you still cannot save the extra power for "later" when you need it. That's where the grid-tie comes in. The power-company becomes your virtual "battery" of an unlimited size. They save all your excess power and make it available to you later. They don't do this because they want to - they are forced into it - and we all pay for it. Anybody in an area where grid-tie is available is charged for that "availability" every month on their bill. Holland has been having a go-around with their huge wind-power sytems. At times they make so much power they have to almost give it away - via big transmission lines - to Germany. But, when the wind is not blowing - they are screwed and have to pay big dollars for power. They are experimenting with alternative means of storage. At present, they are working on huge electric air-compressors, air storage tanks, and air-powered turbines. Sounds pretty complicated.

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Kent in KC

01-24-2007 09:36:45




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
That unit can be built for between $3500 and $4000. For that kind of money you might want to take a hard look at the African Turbine or the Southwest Skystream. Check out www.thesolar.biz for prices.



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Gerald J.

01-24-2007 08:49:23




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
Look up Home Power Magazine on line or in a good book store. They specialize in such power systems and live off grid.

Some utilities won't do the intertie, many only pay their avoided fuel cost for any excess you sell them which is generally about half your cost of small scale generation. A few states mandate net price metering where the utility pays the same for electricity you send to them as what you pay to buy from them.

In my opinion, alternate source home generation only pays to the point of stopping the meter, it doesn't pay to sell power to the utility because your cost per kwh is twice theirs.

Gerald J.

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dirtdigger

01-24-2007 08:20:55




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
Sorry, I guess I don't know how to get the link to www.prairieturbines.com to show up on my message, dirtdigger.



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Kent in KC

01-24-2007 08:14:57




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to dirtdigger, 01-24-2007 08:10:33  
The taller the tower, the higher your wind speed. You might want to check with your county for zoning regs and with your power co for intertie requirements.



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paul

01-24-2007 19:01:02




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 Re: grid tied wind turbine in reply to Kent in KC, 01-24-2007 08:14:57  
Kent has the issues outlined well.

Some shady outfits advertise short towers, but that is wasting your money. You need to get over obsticals like trees, and higher is _always_ better. Windspeed is the name of the game, as power is cubed from windspeed. That multipies _very_ quickly.

As well, tying into the grid is an expensive proposition - you need to match up to the voltage & frequency of the grid. Takes a bit of equipment to match.

Then you need a fail safe disconnect. So you aren't powering up the grid when the grid goes out - backfeeding into linemen trying to work on the 'dead' lines.

Then you need to sell juice back at wholesale costs, not just let the meter turn backwards. So you need a second meter. That is, if your electric co goes along with the plan of buying power from you in the first place.

To pay for those last few bits, you need to produce enough electricity to make it all worth while.

--->Paul

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