Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Electric or propane? -(long)

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
CNKS

01-21-2007 09:22:04




Report to Moderator

We are moving to a property that will be all electric. Our electric utility lowers it's price from $0.112/kw to one half or 0.056/kw for heating and cooling. I'm going to put up a pole barn nearly identical to the one I have now. 30'x60' with 30'x30' insulated and heated. Insulation is spray on polyurethane on underside of the roof and gables, 2x6 framing in the walls with R19 bat insulation, covered by OSB. I currently have natural gas with a 50000 BTU overhead furnace. I live in SW Kansas and the system works very well and is economical at current gas prices. I have never heard anything bad about floor heat (hot water), everyone says that is the way to go as to efficient heating. But, it has to be left on all winter because, in my understanding, it takes several hours to heat. Converting electricity, propane, and natural gas to BTU's, electricity is about 44% more expensive than natural gas, propane is about 40% higher than natural gas at current prices, that are subject to change much more than electricity. In a house, the higher heating cost of electricity is mostly compensated for by lower cooling costs in the summer, because in all electric I get a price break in heating and cooling. In my building, since it will not be air conditioned there is no way to make the cost up. QUESTIONS. My existing furnace cycles on and off, but the fan runs for a period of time after the gas goes off, so I do not know the percentage of running time, I would estimate about 50% in very cold weather, but I don't know. Floor heat is on all the time, night and day, meaning the boiler or water heater cycles on and off but I do not know how much. I wonder what the "dead time" costs me when I am not in the building. I use my existing heat 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week depending on how ambitious I am. My only choices for floor heat or anything else are propane or electric. Is propane furnace heat cheaper ($$, not how much better floor heat is in terms of convenience and rapid recovery after opening a door or something) than propane or electric floor heat. If someone has a clue what the energy cost of infrared heaters is, compared to a furnace, I would appreciate that also. Sorry for the length.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
dave guest

01-25-2007 16:15:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: natural gas vs. electric in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
I am too old to figure this out, but in Mich our gas bills have about 50% devoted to taxes, surcharges, etc., delivery fees. Electric bills have the same about 50%. Some advocate eliminating gas-go all electric, say that extra charges would make it more cost efficient. Comment please. Thanks. Both are supplied from same company DTE energy.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

01-26-2007 17:47:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: natural gas vs. electric in reply to dave guest, 01-25-2007 16:15:08  
Read my response to JDEmaris, below. In KS, surcharges are more like 6-10%. We actually sit on top of the field where the gas comes from. So transportion charges and surcharges are less, at least I think that's the reason. I would use natural gas for heating if I had the choice. Gas is regulated, but the companies can pass on their added cost. Electric prices, although high have not changed in 20+ years (not that they won't), and over the long run may be cheaper than gas -- but I'm certainly not the expert. Our electric rates are among the highest because the utility is allowed to recover the costs incurred when they finished their coal fired plant in the eary 80's, a time of major cost overruns because of the high inflation we had then.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
neblinc

01-22-2007 10:38:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Lots of good info at the site below. I made lots of my decisions based on info I learned there when I built my shop.

Randy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Kent in KC

01-22-2007 06:43:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Also look at solar air heaters. Basically a 4'x8' black panel, framed and insulated with a clear polycarbonate cover, mounted on the exterior south wall. A bathroom fan blows cool air from down near the floor up through the collector and out the top. Even on a cold, but sunny, day it will amaze you how much it can heat. Cheap and simple to make. Check out oynot.com for more info.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jdemaris

01-22-2007 06:01:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
My question relates to your actual total cost for electricity, not what the power company charges for actual production of KWHs. The added delivery charge is often more than the electricty charge. I know Kansas ranks in the middle as compared to other states. I'm in New York that ranks as one of the highest - 48th to be exact. But, it varies by specific area. Take a montly bill here- where electricity is 7.7 cents per KWH. One month's useage of 487 KWH results in a cost of $37.49. But the actual bill is $80.15. There is an extra $42.66 added for delivery. So, at least here, the posted cost of a KWH means little. The advertised cost is 7.7 cents and the actual cost when you pay the bill is 16.4 cents. What do you actually pay per KWH?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

01-22-2007 14:33:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to jdemaris, 01-22-2007 06:01:52  
Without the discount for all electric, $0.1057/kw, with added charges 0.112/kw. That has not changed for over 20 years. In December I used 825 kw at 0.1057 = $87.20, my bill was for $92.05 a difference of $4.85. $3.80 of that was "customer charge", $1.05 county tax. My natural gas bill for the same period was 139.03, including a customer charge of $12 and a county tax of $1.56. I do not know how much of that was the cost of the energy, as they also include pipeline costs. People in the NE do have a problem, the REA type utilities or cooperatives in KS and other states seem fair to me. The gas companies have no control over the gas market as gas is traded just like stocks, they pass any cost increase in the gas they buy through to the customer.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

01-21-2007 20:08:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Thanks for all the answers. I think what I will do is base it all on the 50000 BTU that my natural gas furnace uses, which works fine, even though it runs a lot, and make comparisons at 50000 BTU of energy, Propane or electric. My calculations say that resistance electric is about $250/month, heat pump $71/month, propane at the current price of $1.50/gallon, $160/mo. That is 100% running time 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I imagine on the coldest days my current furnace runs about 80% of the time which is still far more than I want to pay for propane, and anything other than heat pump electricity is also prohibitive. But, that is only for Dec, Jan, Feb. The other months "usually" have a lot of warm days. However, the installation cost of the heat pump will be the highest, maybe as high as installing floor heat. I have pretty much ruled out floor heat because I don't know how to figure the actual cost due to the time it is off or on, particularly at night.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Steve Crum

01-21-2007 19:01:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
I looked at just about every option. Electric was the first ruled out at $.17 per KWH. Propane recently hit 3 bucks a gallon in this area (ferrelgas). so I just bought an old 120,000 BTU Patriot 80 oil fired hot air furnace off a guy at work that installs furnaces as a sideline (2 30 packs of Coors lite). Stuck in some ducts and a pipe chimney and all the walls and ceiling have R-19 fiberglass batts covered by 1" R-5 styrofoam and 7/16" OSB. I worked out there most of 14 hours yesterday and kept it at 65 degrees. Outside was about 20 and windy. Burn't about 4 gallons of fuel oil at $2.04 a gallon.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
David - OR

01-21-2007 13:26:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Assume 12 foot high average walls
Assume no doors or windows and excellent air sealing
Assume all surfaces insulated to R19, giving a wall and ceiling "system" performance of around R10

Assume same climate as Wichita, KS

You have 30*12*4 or 1440 square feet of wall
You have 900 square feet of ceiling.
Total 2340 square feet

At an average of R10, Your shop loses 234 BTU per hour per degree of temperature difference between inside and outside

If the inside is 65 degrees, and the outside is 0, you need 15000 BTU per hour to maintain the temp.
So you don't need a very large unit to heat the shop.

Wichita has an average of 4800 base 65 heating degree days per year. This equates to 4800 * 24 or 115200 degree hours. At 234 BTU per degree hour, this means it would take 27 million BTU per year to heat your shop to 65 degrees, 24x7.

At 3413 BTU per kwH, this is 7900 kwH of electricity per year of resistance heat.
At $0.112 per kwh this is $885 per year.

A heat pump would do better, a good unit achieving around 1/3 of this or 2600 kwh per year. Since this qualified as heating and cooling equipment, you might be eligible for the "low rate" of .056 per kwh or $146 per year for the heat load electricity only. And you can put it into cooling mode in the summer if you want to, of course paying more for the electricity to do that.

If a gallon of propane costs $2.10 and contains 92000 BTU and you have an 80 percent efficiency furnace, it takes 370 gallons of propane to provide 24x7 heat, or $777 per year. One benefit of propane is that you can significantly oversize the unit and not lose that much efficiency, making for a faster warm-up in really cold weather compared to heat pumps. But other than that, propane isn't all that great at these prices.

If you only use the shop 5 days a week for 6 hours a day on the average, and you have minimal thermal mass (you just warm up the shop when you need it, no heated slab) then you can expect to use only about 20 percent of the above numbers -- a bit more if your useage is primarily at night, less if it is during the day.

The heated slab makes for a pleasant surface to work on, but it is hard to argue for that to be the sole source of heat for a building used only 20 percent of the time. There is a secondary benefit in the sense that radiant heat "feels warmer" than ambient heat, allowing you to run the air at a lower temp and still be comfortable, but I doubt this is enough of an effect to make up for the 20 percent useage issue.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jim in N M

01-21-2007 12:59:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
CNKS, Maybe you should look into "Gordon Reye" Infared overhead tube, Ive got one in me shop,and it is on a thermostat,set low when not in use, and it warms the shop up in ten minutes or so. Mine's on propane. If you need more info let me know. jim in N M



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

01-21-2007 12:24:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Forced air heat pump. Then if want to do solar or wind power you can do net metering with a grid tie invertor. No need to purchase and maintain a battery bank.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
evielboweviel

01-21-2007 11:18:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
might want to look into electric heating matts in the floor. installed with seperate stats for each zone so that the bldg is broke up into 3 or 4 zones.
would not use a boiler if going with all electric.
Ron



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

01-21-2007 11:52:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to evielboweviel, 01-21-2007 11:18:00  
Heating mats in the concrete or between the concrete and the floor covering? Seems like they would get squashed by tractors, etc, if the latter. I have read of that type thing as as add on to existing houses or even new construction, didn't think it applied to my situation, I do not know. I really don't think I want zones in only 900 sq ft. Your last sentence about the boiler: There is an local installer that makes his own electric "boilers". There are basically tankless and are used in combination with a pump of some sort. He suggests 2-4500 watt units, with 3rd 4500 watt that I can use if needed. 4500 X 3 X 3.41 BTU's/watt = 46300 BTU's -- that would be adequate. He can do the whole thing, parts and labor for $1800, that is cheap. Electric company says the KW use is prohibitive, but I am not sure the electric guy considered the on-off cycle time. Those are the type things that no one (this forum or elsewhere), thus far, has answered, and is the type of info I need, in comparison to a propane overhead furnace or infrared heat, etc.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
evielboweviel

01-21-2007 13:57:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 11:52:20  
matts in the concrete instead of pipes. used for snow melt in driveways, sidewalks and warming floors. zones would be helpfull if you had a tendency to work in one area a lot. like a workbench area or one bay that you always worked on equipment in. keep that zone at 60degf air temp and the rest at 50degf air. keeping in mind that the floor would be warm so you will feel warmer esp if working under vehicles. also you could install timers and let the area cool down and then warm it back up starting 3-4 hours earlier than you planned to use it. changing time on timers based on OA temp would help shave the bill. IF using electric then electric matts are cheaper to operate than an electric boiler. If you insist on water for floor heat then consider a geothermal heat pump should for the house anyway. remember you should use food grade gycol in the piping and you will have a loss in efficenty with any thing added to water
getting back to your original question you would need to do a load/loss calculation to deternmine how many BTU's it would take to maintain that space based on a design temp of ? for inside and your mean OA temp that I would guess at 0 degf.
I would defintely use 1" foam under the whole floor the blue that has a higher crush rating and is designed for under floor use. reinforce the floor and recomend embedding plates and maybe pipes in floor for anchors and support pads along with angle iron at all doors. ground all plates and pipes together and stub up by your welder so that you don't have to drag ground cable around when welding.
OK got long winded lots more suggestions for your building if interessed.
Ron

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Stumpalump

01-21-2007 09:51:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2007 09:22:04  
Run the tubes in the concrete and connect them to a solar collector. This will keep the chill out with that big chuck of thermal mass. Use traditional heat electric or propane to warm it up when you want it toasty. I got a buddy who just did that due west of you and I can pick his brain if you need me too.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jim West TN

01-22-2007 16:32:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to Stumpalump, 01-21-2007 09:51:22  
Heat pumps do not perform well in Kansas weather. They perform marginally in Tennesse and if you have a winter with many sub freezing days in a row you have to come up wit an additional source of heat.
Jim



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

01-22-2007 19:55:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Electric or propane? -(long) in reply to Jim West TN, 01-22-2007 16:32:51  
They won't work in a shop building too well, the local heating business told me, because I want to turn it off at night, and recovery time is slow. Putting them in houses where the gas company refuses to hook you up is becoming common place in this area, because of the higher price of propane. The newer ones do work. What the guy said for my building, not the house, is that they can install strips of resistance heating for faster warmup, then let the heat pump take over. Energy cost is likely still less than propane, PROVIDED they will let me have the half rate. However the installation cost is $3500-$4000 -- I don't want to pay that much. By comparison my natural gas overhead furnace cost less than $500, if I remember right.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy