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finding and telephone line and diggin a trench

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chuckinnc

01-18-2007 10:27:49




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I need to dig a shallow 4" wide trench for a washer/sink drain line. I have to locate a shallow (about 4-6") deep phone line first. Instead of waiting a year for the phone co I would like to know if a metal detector or any other way I could locate the phone line? I have a small dozer & tractor but no backhoe, does anyone have a sugguestion on how to dig a 4"
wide 6-8" deep trench in red clay, using something other than buying a backhoe?

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bcPA

01-21-2007 21:12:34




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
You could dig the trench with a roto tiller. You could use all the tines or remove the outside ones. Then go back and remove the loose soil with a shovel.



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John(OR)

01-20-2007 22:31:29




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Grab a shovel 6 to 8" isn't very deep, should feel anything buried. Should be able to dig 100' or more in a day.



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Dave Anderson

01-19-2007 11:56:41




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Call miss utility or your state equivalent. Dig your trench. If'n you hit something, move their flags or paint marks to make it look like its their mistake. Works every time as long as you have extra paint/flags.



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jdemaris

01-19-2007 09:47:26




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
I've cut through Verizon underground lines three times in the past 30 years. They run and zig-zag through my fields - and some are only 6" deep.
Here in New York - you are alledgedly required to call "Dig New York" first and give them time to respond. But, if you read the very-small print of the State-law - it only holds "third-party" escavators/contractors legally responsible - not property owners. At least here in New York - if I accidently cut one of Verizons underground cables - on my property - they cannot hold me repsonsible - unless it's a case of extreme negligence. They also cannot hold anyone repsonsible if a cut occurs while doing routine farm work. And, also - most written "right of ways" like for my property, state that Bell Telephone and its assigns cannot interfere with my use of the land - including farm maintenance. I just went through all this. I asked Verion years ago to put some markers in my fields to indicate where undergound lines might be - and they refused. The lines were put in around 1960 and never marked. A few months ago, while grading a farm-road with a dozer - I hit one of their lines. It serves all the farms and homes past me - maybe 30 residences. I helped them fix it - with my backhoe. Verizon's new policy is - no underground splices allowed. So, we had to install a few of those little tombstone-style, above-ground splice boxes. I did all the digging and filling. A few months later - I got a bill for over $3000. Shortly after, a phone call from a collection agency demanding to know when my Insurance Company was going to pay Verizon. I called my company, and they sent over an adjuster. He said I was legally responsible, and I said "I was not." So, he pulled out his laptop computer to show me the law and we both read it, line by line together. To his surprise - he said I was correct and they were not paying Verizon a cent. He called Verizon, and they dropped the whole thing. From my point of view - they are used to bullying people and getting their way - regardless of who is at fault. I sent Verizon a bill for my services - but I'm not holding by breath expecting payment.

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Nolan

01-19-2007 07:06:16




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
You don't mention how long this trench has to be.

I'd be awful inclined to do it by hand with a shovel. You can dig a whole lot of shallow trench in a hurry with a shovel, even in clay.

Hand shovels don't tend to damage a buried phone line. That's why they're required if you're digging near one.



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Jay87T

01-19-2007 06:20:17




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
well I work for the phone company, and one day in the shoppe, some co worker showed me a trick to locate buried wires, he used 2 Bare pieces of copper like 10 gauge solid copper wire (ground wire) with no shielding on it, he then made them into L shaps held each on in each hand and pointed them towards the suspected path, when he got over the wire, they somehow turned them selves and cossed and made a X, I was AMAZED. I forget what this is called.
Read this Link

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Nat 2

01-19-2007 14:36:03




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to Jay87T, 01-19-2007 06:20:17  
That's one of the techniques used in WATER DOWSING, if I recall the term correctly.

We've used it to locate drainage tile lines buried several feet deep. Dad has totally flabbergasted many a hoe operator who think they're such big shots being able to read the color of the grass... They can't find the line. Dad gets out the wires, walks across the field until they splay outwards, points, and says "dig here." 99 times out of 100, the line is right there!

The only problem with that technique is that you either have the "talent" or you don't. My Dad, my brother, and I can all do it. Mom can't. Most of the contractors that have come to dig tile for us can't.

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Northstar9126

01-19-2007 05:47:51




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Last summer I was digging a trench to bury the wire for my electric to my garage. In the process I managed to tear up my phone line. The phone line was buried only a couple of inches deep by them. I called my phone company about repairing the line, they gave me some outragous price for an independent guy to come in and fix it. I told them that they could either fix it for free or disconnect my service. I have two land lines and DSL through the phone line. I was prepared to go with internet over the satellite and everyone in my home has their own cell phone service. They decided to send out one of their guys to fix it that day at no charge, guess they did'nt want to lose the business.

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Hobo,NC

01-18-2007 18:50:37




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
The main question I as when I call the locator izz If I don�t find the line were its marked how far do you require me to dig. Best I remember its 12� and may be 16� so I do the required dept and call back if I don�t locate it. Most of the time they will send sumone out to confirm and if I have meet their requirement I either dig no lower than the requirement or they respot the line and dig it for me. I ran into this last summer, the line wuz around 20� in the ground that was installed by a contractor years ago after I meet the requirement they dug the next 4� or so to locate the line. I lost rite much time on this job cause the customer then decided to run water all over the plantation. We never found a line enny wares they must have panted them 20� or better all over the place. I also had a line spotted 5 or six years ago that I ended up digging up, they spotted it wrong and came to find out they spotted a old line. I have also dug up lines that I did not know were their, I then dug up enuff line and opened up the ditch enuff so the repair man could git in for a EZ splice and have never been charged sumtimes ya gotta be nice to the repair man.

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CNKS

01-18-2007 18:03:09




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Just call the one call place -- they are not that slow getting there. I had them mark my phone line. Knew exactly were it was, and uncovered it before I dug. Had a ride on trencher and could not see well enough. Still cut it. Phone company did not charge me for fixing it. Locate the line and rent a walk behind trencher -- 6-8 inches deep is easy, trencher rental should be $50-$100.



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jeffcat

01-18-2007 17:19:05




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Bin there, done that . Give them a call and THEN you are covered. I needed to replace a sewer line and it was NOwares near anything. Cover your bottom side cause they can get real PIs--y about it. You should have seen when the gas company dug up the three phase line that went into the bussines park! Jeffcat



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Billy NY

01-18-2007 13:04:04




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
After making the "one call" before you dig and lessening your liability, as well as having the line staked out, you still have to excavate this shallow trench, using the information provided by those who marked out the work area, and whose accuracy is still to be determined. If you damage the line, the cost to repair and the downtime of the service will be an issue, as well as liability for same. Best to use care.

A one bottom plow, trenching machine and even a front end loader could be an easy way, depending on soil conditions, to dig 6"-8" deep trench, but using these methods you are not likely to see the utility line before you damage it if it is present or does interfer with your new line.

Having quite a bit of experience at the controls, and having to excavate around utility lines in the past, I have found that having a laborer with a sharp eye, a willingness to use a shovel and an ability to pay attention is very helpful and absolutley necessary when locating something buried that you do not want to damage. Without that person's trained eyes, focused on the work, undistracted, you are at a big disadantage. If the existing line is dangerously close to the line you want to put in, ( after the locating service stakes it out ) reconsider your layout if you can and move it a safe distance, excavate, install the line, backfill it properly and with just a little cover over the pipe, lay some yellow caution over it, to warn someone else later on, in a deeper trench you can leave some more cover over the pipe to provide some margin of error for the next guy.

If you must stay with the orginal layout, there is no question that you will have to locate the line if it is within the same elevation as this shallow trench, odds are it ought to be deeper or lower in elevation, but you never know and cannot assume anything no matter what.


Find a starting point to give you some indication of where it runs, see you can find where the line projects above ground, see if you can follow it to the work area, then excavate close to it but leave plenty of room for hand work. I prefer to over excavate nearby 1st and create a face to hand dig, it makes the hand work a little easier, the spoil falls into the trench as you collapse the trench wall, and look a little at a time, you can more easily locate what you are looking for by hand. Hard to explain, but it's what works for me, when I know I can get the bucket into the ground close by. Sometimes there is no substitute for hand work, right from the beginning, to locate something. It just takes time. I have seen numerous breaks when I did this work, and all of them were do to carelessness, lack of experience, and haste, everyone wants 30 second gratification, in this work that can also get you dead besides damaging utility lines.

If the line is exposed during the work and is in the trench wall, you are still not out of danger as if the fill undermines underneath, it has no support or if a trench wall collapses above it can also become damaged, so you must support said line and take photos of this to prove the work was done properly. At the depth you are working, this may not apply and hopefully what I write here is overkill, same principal but much smaller scale.

At minimum, a hoe operated by someone who is experienced and accustomed to that particular machine, is probably the best choice of equipment. Once you have positively located the line, the laborer in the hole or on the ground must carefully guide the operator if the line is to be continuously exposed to get your trench excavated or is suspect to be close to the work but is not seen. No hurry here, one must take their time to avoid contact that could cause damage and support said line as the work proceeds.

I have seen the results of broken phone lines, from minimal contact, stay away from fiber optics if they are present.


Whilst holding a 2" or 3" diameter phone line up with a rope, it was in the wall of our trench, soil conditions were fine sand, the bank around me fractured and before I could let go, the whole thing collapsed with me riding the firm crust on top into a very wide, but almost shear walled 17-20 foot deep trench, now instead of me supporting the phone line, I was hanging from it by the rope with one hand, and waving with the other so the operator could see me when he made the swing back after casting the spoil. 1000 feet of trench, along a state road, in sandy soil, for an 8" dia sewer line extension, phone cable in the work area, and a high water table, well points, dewatering, trench collapses, one of which buried a co-worker while I was operating, he disobeyed direct orders, went into the trench, lucky it was only 6 feet deep, up to his neck, I dug him out by hand, we were all real young then, stupid and green, including the owner only 3 years older, whose family was once part owner of a big heavy/highway outfit, went on his own after a squabble, he grew up around this work, but this job was something he may not have seen, everyone learned something on this jobsite, and 2 of us were involved with a collapse, yet we toughed it out, and of course the darned pipe settled and was rejected, he had to dig it up again, and raise it up to be accepted.

I can remember how long it took those phone guys to splice this thing together, they hardly touched the casing at this location and service was interrupted, where the trench collapse with me riding the sand wave into the pit, no damage. Well that's my phone line job story LOL !

There was a guy on this job who used a similar home made locating device, says it works for some people and he'd been using it for years, and in the same way as described,it did work too, except his was copper, like heavy stranded ground wire, it worked for locating the 12" high pressure water main, although it was funny how far the stream went into the air and over the house when the operator severed the service lateral for the home, clear over the house it went, had he even hit that 12" main, I'd have run for the hills.

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Heat Houser

01-18-2007 11:32:53




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
You can try "witching" the phone line. Take two pieces of steel wire (galvanized is OK) about 2 ft long. Bend each piece into an L with the short leg long enough to fit comfortably in your hand. Lightly grasp (very lightly) the short legs, one in each hand with the long ends pointing straight ahead and about shoulder wide. Walk perpendicular to the suspected location. The wires will either swing in and cross or swing out 180 degrees from one another. False positives will be surface water, old trenches, water pipes, electrical lines, gas lines, etc. Note I said GAS LINES and ELECTRIC LINES. Hope you don't have any!

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Hoenes

01-19-2007 19:53:01




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to Heat Houser, 01-18-2007 11:32:53  
Heat houser, when I was young, I was told that some well drillers could "witch" a deep well vain by walking with a forked shaped "willow" stick. When passing over the good vain of water, the willow branch would bend or point down. Fact or fiction?



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huntingreen

01-19-2007 20:41:07




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to Hoenes, 01-19-2007 19:53:01  
FACT seen it done. done it. It was simply amazing. Used a peach tree fork and it twisted right toward the ground.



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tomturkey

01-18-2007 11:31:31




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
In the hayseed state of IOWA. It is the law that you call before digging, even a post hole on your ground. The locate is free, hitting something if you don't call is not free. 48 hours is the requirement b-4 you dig. The locates are "to within 2'0". Making you be very carefull for 4'0"



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IH2444

01-18-2007 10:54:21




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Bruied phone lines and such are easy to find. Just start digging.



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muggsw6

01-18-2007 12:17:55




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to IH2444, 01-18-2007 10:54:21  
Spoken like a true pipeliner! LOL
Mark



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glennster

01-18-2007 11:20:49




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to IH2444, 01-18-2007 10:54:21  
yupper, a backhoe really makes short work of a 2-25 pair phone line. funny too, it seems like after your tear about three feet out of the ground, there is a jillion little wires in em. call before diggin.....been there ....done that



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jamesestes

01-18-2007 10:46:02




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
If the phone line in question is your drop to your house they might not locate for you. Call One Call or Dig Tess and ask. Rent a walk behind trencher to dig your ditch.



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Gerald J.

01-18-2007 10:34:45




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to chuckinnc, 01-18-2007 10:27:49  
Call the state one call dig line. Give them 48 hours, no more.

Gerald J.



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Vern-MI

01-18-2007 11:08:07




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 Re: finding and telephone line and diggin a trench in reply to Gerald J., 01-18-2007 10:34:45  
Yes those MISS-DIG guys are supposed to be able to find your lines but in reality they are just a best guess. You should have a good idea of where your lines are and after they mark the lines you can tell them where the lines really are. They sometimes are yards away from the real lines. By knowing the general proximity of the lines you maybe able to pinpoint the exact location with their help. However once they mark the lines they are responsible for any location errors causing damage to their lines.

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