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About to replace the oven element. Is this normal

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Ryan - WI

01-16-2007 15:23:39




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I am about to put a new element in my wife's oven. As I was taking the old one out I "noticed" that there was power to one of the terminals even though the oven was off. After getting out my Digital Multimeter (my left arm is not as accurate as I like sometimes) I noticed that there is 121 volts between the left terminal (black) and the ground of the oven. Is it supposed to be that way or do I have a major problem elsewhere which caused the element to go out. The oven and new element is a 240v so I guess it is possible that there is normally 110 running through it for whatever reason, but it just seemed strange that there would be any power to the element when the oven was off.

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dan hill

01-17-2007 01:37:44




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
No need for long winded explaination ,unplug be for working on anything.On hard wired stuff ,check to make sure you got the right circuit breaker with a meter.Oven elements will flash when they fail, but wait till a top element goes off.Dont look at the flash, you will get eye burn.240 volts makes quite an arc.Put the bolt cutters where you cant find them.Fellow bought the farm messing with a water heater a few years ago near me.I have done appliance work for 50 years and would advise most people to have the work done by some one who knows better than to work on hot circuits.

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dave guest

01-16-2007 19:16:04




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
Bet anybody a dollar, even the neutral/ground carries current. That how the little lights operate. New Ovens and ranges are supposed to be wired with 4 conductors. Two hot, 1 neutral, 1 grounding for that reason. Electric dryers also. Timers use 110v. Be careful don't become a live wire.



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dave guest

01-17-2007 19:50:23




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to dave guest, 01-16-2007 19:16:04  
What I'm saying, Mr. buckanddeere is that there are thousands of oven, ranges, and dryers wire only with three wires 2 hots and neutral which also is the grounding. In this case neutral/grounding is current carrying. That is why they are now 4 wire.



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buickanddeere

01-18-2007 17:44:42




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to dave guest, 01-17-2007 19:50:23  
The combined ground & neutral wire causes all kinds of problems. That's why stoves and clothes dryers are all sold with four prong plugs now. The old three 120/240 dryer and stove plug prong combo mess is a hangover from the days they didn't even run a ground wire in homes and there were only two wire 120V and three prong 240. No such thing as four prong unless three phase back in the dark ages.

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buickanddeere

01-17-2007 14:14:22




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to dave guest, 01-16-2007 19:16:04  
The ground only carries current in fault conditions. The neutral carries operating current. Two different animals entirely, they just happen to operate within a few volts of each other.



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Bob

01-16-2007 18:36:45




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
I can't IMAGINE working in an oven, without first shutting the breaker "off", AND unplugging the range!

About a year ago, a friend, Larry, was replacing the element for his Mom, and also forgot to unplug the range. When he came to, he was across the kitchen, having dented the front of the refrigerator.

The flash of light, and seeing him flop across the kitchen kinda unnerved his elderly Mom!

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las vegas

01-16-2007 17:19:14




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
Good God, you used bolt cutters while they were still showing voltage that one day it was on fire? dang, man, time to get started on some electrical saftey procedures, UNPLUG AND TEST EVERYTHING



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Ken B.

01-16-2007 16:28:46




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
As stated in other post some ovens have single pole thermostats with a single pole selector sw. If you turn eather one to the off position it will not heat. You need to unplug or turn off the power before working on any appliances. Your were in more danger with the bolt cutters than you thought. If you had turned the oven off (both sw)and closed the door it would went out by its self with out a problem. and been safe . Ken B

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Ken B.

01-16-2007 16:28:38




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
As stated in other post some ovens have single pole thermostats with a single pole selector sw. If you turn eather one to the off position it will not heat. You need to unplug or turn off the power before working on any appliances. Your were in more danger with the bolt cutters than you thought. If you had turned the oven off (both sw)and closed the door it would went out by its self with out a problem. and been safe . Ken B

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Stan in Oly, WA

01-16-2007 16:05:40




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
Hi Ryan,

Your description doesn't make it clear to me where you measured current. Specifically, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "terminals."
All the oven elements I've changed had bayonet type connectors on the two ends which went through the back wall of the oven. The wires which connect to the element have the female ends that fasten to the male ends on the element.

Being a 240 volt appliance, the oven does not use the ground as a return. The two hot lines each furnish the return for the other. When the oven is turned on and heating (before it reaches the temperature it is set for and the thermostat turns off the element) you would get a reading of 120 volts across either hot line and the ground, or 240 volts across the two hots.

The thermostats of 240 volt electric baseboard heaters are either single pole or double pole. A single pole thermostat opens to interrupt only one line to the heater while a double pole thermostat interrupts both lines. This means with a single pole thermostat, there will always be 120 volts to the heater when the thermostat is "off" and you can measure 120 volts between one line and the ground. This current is available to the heater but does no work (make heat) because it has no return as long as the thermostat keeps the other line broken.

The situation you describe sounds like what you would find if the switch was a single pole type---as they are not supposed to be. This would not wear out the element any faster because current to only one side of the element would not make it do any work, but it would represent a dangerous situation. A person who touched the hot wire and the grounded chassis of the stove (a not unlikely event) would conduct 120 volts and might be electrocuted.

I could be wrong about the oven switch normally being double pole. I usually unplug ranges when I work on them and, come to think of it, that's what you should be doing too.

All the best, Stan

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tech4

01-16-2007 15:57:32




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
You need to turn the circuit breaker off - The switch only breaks one leg of the 240 volts and the other is hot 120 to ground. Turn the breaker off before working and not just the switch.



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buickanddeere

01-16-2007 15:54:38




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 Re: About to replace the oven element. Is this no in reply to Ryan - WI, 01-16-2007 15:23:39  
The thermostat control is either single pole or one set of contacts are welded closed. This is why it's vital to switch both lines of 240V single phase and all three legs of three phase. You can isolate one line of single phase and two lines of three phase. The device will shut down but it's still live. When working on anything it's good practice to entirely power it down, pull the plug etc. Ask any emergency response personal how often they haul people, parts and corpses from "shut off" equipment.

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