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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

220v wire question.

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Jpulel

01-06-2007 20:04:57




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I have a table saw that is 220v and draws 20amps max and I want to add a dedicated circut for it. Its a 42 foot run. I know 110v #12 romex wire is rated for 20amps. Can I just use the the typical #12 romex using the white and black hot and the bare ground wire as the ground? I would color the white red with a marker pen. If I recall...220v wire is still #12 only the ground is shielded by green insulation.

Thanks in advance.

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buickanddeere

01-07-2007 12:26:32




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Are you running the romex/NMD-7 stright to the saw or to a box on the wall. Then plugging the saw in with SOW cable?



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Gerald J.

01-07-2007 08:17:59




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Go with 10/3 wg for that long a run. The starting voltage crop will be excessive with 12 gauge and will overstress the motor with prolonged starts. In my shop with the breaker 60' from the saws the only way I got good starting was to make use of the 50 amp welder circuit where I added a local panel. And I still run 10 gauge to the saws.

Gerald J.



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John T

01-07-2007 08:17:40




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
JP, You say it draws 20 amps MAX but Im unsure sittin here if it might draw 20 amps "CONTINUOUS" under a sustained load????? ??? if its 20 amps continuous you should NOT use 12 Gauge wire..... In addition to the plain old ampacity rating, there are other NEC rules concerning "continuous" loads that come into play. Besides, the bigger wire will reduce voltage drop, allow for expansion, and dont forget when a motor starts it draws something like 6 times the current then when its running. If the saw only drew something like 10 to 15 amps max continuous then you could get by with 12 gauge wire, but that 20 amp figure you threw out REGARDLESS if its max or whatever causes me to recommend 10 gauge wiring, ESPECIALLY since the cost difference over a short run is so minimal BETTER SAFE THEN SORRY

THEREFORE I would strongly advise if youre gonna run a branch circuit to feed it, I WOULD USE 10 GAUGE (30 amp rated) wiring. I say that REGARDLESS if the 20 amps you mentioned is max or continuous just as a safer and porecautionary and better design..... ..

The 12 versus 10 gauge thing is NOT cuz its 120 or 240 volts, its cuz of the amperage load. Either typical wire insulation is wayyyyy yyyy higher in voltage rating then just 110 or 220 anyway.

Is it going to be a cord with plug to a receptacle attachment or what????? If so that satisfies as a means of disconnect. HOWEVER if its hard wired then I would place a 240 volt 30 amp 2 pole blade type safety switch disconnect on the wall with flexible conduit like seal tite etc ran from it to the saw.

The branch circuit will require 3 conductors, Two hots (L1 and L2 Phase wires, red and black typical colors) plus a safety equipment ground, (normally bare or green insulated)

Hope this helps n answers your questions. The needed materials (wire and safety switch and/or receptacles n plugs and flexible conduit if needed etc) are relatively inexpensive and avaialbkle at liek Home Depot or Menards or Lowes etc.

John T

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Richard H.

01-07-2007 09:00:04




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to John T, 01-07-2007 08:17:40  
Just askin, since it is a dedicated circuit plus permanent doesn"t the 125% rule come in to play there also?

Just jabbering , Richard



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John T

01-07-2007 09:08:50




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Richard H., 01-07-2007 09:00:04  
That was EXACTLY my point when speaking of a "continuous load" where you cant get by with wire rated right up to the max current i.e. the 125% rule you mentioned meaning 80% x 20 amps or 16 amps continuous is all on 12 gauge wire. Fun to see someone actually reads this stuff lol

John T



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Richard H.

01-07-2007 09:20:51




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to John T, 01-07-2007 09:08:50  
More fun for me would be to have a 220/20amp table saw and a place big enough to put it!

Richard H.



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Just lurking

01-07-2007 08:13:47




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Use 10/2 unless you think you may need a neutral somtime down the line, then use 10/3. The wire size has nothing to do with the voltage,it deals with the ampacity. NEC says #12 good for 20a yes but a breaker should only run at 80% of its rated ampacity.You are past that. 10/2 with a 30A breaker is fine. Pull the 10/3 and you can make 2 circuits at 110 volts later if needed.



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railhead

01-07-2007 07:21:08




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
ok I am a little slow but why mark the white wire? Isn't it white on the other end as well?



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MarkB_MI

01-07-2007 19:16:11




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to railhead, 01-07-2007 07:21:08  
Railhead, you must always mark a white wire when it is hot. And you must mark it at both ends. That way anyone who looks at it later knows that it is hot and intentionally so.

Likewise you need to mark the neutral white if it isn't a white wire and you need to mark a ground green if it isn't bare or green.



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railhead

01-08-2007 17:37:18




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to MarkB_MI, 01-07-2007 19:16:11  
THAT'S a good one. Who on earth would open a recepticle, ESPECIALLY one for a 220 V appliance and see two wires and assume a wire of ANY color was not hot. In my shop, I have welding circuits on 6 2/G and of course the white is hot and the ground is bare. I have 220 heating circuits ran on every color of 10 guage (in conduit) you can get it in (blue, red, black white etc). Why? because I have the wire on hand, someone gave it to me, or I bought it at a farm sale, estate sale, yard sale, etc etc.

I guess the NEC police will trace my IP address now, come kick my doors down and hold me at gun point till I wire it all on the right color.

I may drop dead in the next 10 minutes but it won't be from opening a circuit of any type and grabbing a wire of any color because a code says it should not be hot.

And boy I hope no NEC trained electrician buys my place when I check out!!!!!

Thanks for the info.

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MarkB_MI

01-07-2007 05:22:08




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Wrapping the white wire with red or black electrical tape is a better way to mark it than using a pen.

As others have said, it's a good idea to run 10 gauge if your saw really needs 20 amps. You'll get better starting, and if you ever decide to use that circuit for a bigger tool (like a big compressor), you just need install a bigger breaker.



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jhill52

01-07-2007 01:44:55




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Don't skimp on the wire. Wire it to code and stay out of trouble. Use 10/3 with ground. The life you save could be your own.



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Stan in Oly, WA

01-07-2007 01:40:34




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Hi Jpulel,

I've seen lots of 220 volt appliances run on 12 gauge wire---namely electric heaters. The determining factor here is that the circuit is supplied through a 20 amp breaker. 12 gauge wire is adequate (code, actually) on a 20 amp breaker. If the saw overdraws the breaker capacity you'll get nuisance tripping. It wouldn't create a dangerous situation unless one or more system components failed to work properly, but you can say that about any correct electrical installation.

If the saw does trip the breaker, there's little likelihood that it wouldn't have done so with 10 gauge wire. What you couldn't do in that case would be to replace the 20 amp breaker with a 30 amp one without also replacing the 12 gauge wire with 10.

All the best, Stan

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Uncle Ernie

01-06-2007 22:08:51




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
That will work! Make sure you mark the white like you plan. Black tape will do the trick too.



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banjo

01-06-2007 21:44:04




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 Re: 220v wire question. in reply to Jpulel, 01-06-2007 20:04:57  
Better go with the 10/2 with ground. I have never seen a 12/2 wired for 220.



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