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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Machinist question

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PaulW_NJ

12-07-2006 19:57:24




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A friend of mine was asked if he knew anyone who wanted (for free) and old (electric and in good condition) metal working machine called a scraper, or shaper (not sure which). It is a 7" Ames. So he offered it to me. Apparently it surfaces a part by makes successive scrapes, and one thing it is used for is for making keyways on shafts.

I would love to find an old milling machine . . but I"m not sure what this thing would be useful for. Don"t forsee many keyways down the line. Any suggestions? Should I take it, or pass?

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Slowpoke

12-10-2006 00:34:55




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Take it!! I have a South Bend. My first project was to make latches for the moveable window to replace the broken pot metal latches on a 25 year old storm door. The latches were not available anywhere. It just takes some thinking on how to set up each shape by only cutting in a straight line. The work must be held securely to avoid accidents.



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Bud in NC

12-09-2006 04:11:48




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
From the pic it looks like it's a belt drive. You can get new leather drive belts from McMaster-Carr on-line. If nothing else, I'd stick it in a barn, out of the weather to save it from being scrapped until I could find a motor and pulley that would work.



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upred

12-08-2006 20:52:54




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Here is a link to some shaper info. The most common thing to go bad is the inner bull gear.
I have a 7in ammco shaper with an bad bull gear, if any one knows where I can find one please let me know. I would take in a heartbeat, lots of things you can do with one. just takes a little time-- Rick


http://www.geocities.com/euxineseaweed/shaper.html



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Easy1

12-08-2006 19:40:46




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Back when I was about 16, my father had a Cincinnati hydrualic shaper. Good size brute. I screwed up one day and didn't tighten up the screw on the clapper bax, and the tool fell PART way out. On the next stroke, it tore the vise right off the table, breakng some pretty hefty bolts in the process. Didn't hurt anybody, but scared the crap outta me!!!



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dr.sportster

12-08-2006 18:58:45




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Saw a giant one run once.Kinda scared me.Your gonna need a childproof switch on that baby.Nice deal.



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MikeCatthemuseum

12-08-2006 16:11:50




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
I am always amazed by the number of people who immediately discard a shaper as useless. The shaper is probably THE most versatile machine in the shop... it is also the slowest, which is why you don't see them in shop much anymore.

A shaper can do ANYTHING a mill can do, short of drilling a hole. You'll also need a drill press to get the most out of it, but that said...

A shaper can BORE a hole by rotating a boring bar around in an existing round hole betwen strokes (machine stopped!). It can also do a square hole, rectangular hole, triangular, or whatever other internal shape you might desire if you just use your brain setting it up. Internal splines and gear teeth can be done no other way except broaching.

They are superior to a mill for cutting gears because you can make your own cutters out of $2 tool bits and re-sharpen them quickly. All you need is an indexing head or dividing head and you can make any gear you might dream up. Ditto square splines, dovetails and other odd shapes that cost mucho bucks for special form cutters.

When it comes to surfacing, the shaper has no equal. You can use a surface plate to print a part surfaced with a mill and you'll discover it ALWAYS has a dished surface due to the round cutter being ever so slightly off flat. Even grinders aren't always as accurate due to heating of the part. The shaper cuts absolutely flat with very little further work to get an perfectly flat surface.

Once you learn to use a shaper, you'll find a mill to be even MORE useful as you'll approach things differently due to being forced to think when setting up the shaper. You'll also find yourself using the shaper nearly as much as the mill as you will recognize situations when it wil be a better way to do things instead of automatically going to the mill.

Note the cautions that have been posted. A shaper is the most decievingly docile looking and sounding machine in the shop.. it is also the most powerful and least forgiving in terms of damaging itself, the work, or you. Don't touch the work unless the power is OFF. Don't even reach near the ram unless the power is OFF. Make sure the work is securely clamped or it's going to make a hole in the opposite wall. Stay out from in front of or behind the ram. Use that wheel on the side to hand traverse the ram before every cut to make sure it isn't going to hit anything or suck the ram back into the column and snatch the compound head off. This one is too small to bolt down, just set it up where it can't walk around.

Get it. Having the original vise with it doubles its value. Have fun and be very careful with it.

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PaulW_NJ

12-08-2006 17:55:21




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to MikeCatthemuseum, 12-08-2006 16:11:50  
Mike

Thanks for your thoughts, encouragement, and warnings. I have the uncomfortable feeling of being a novice on this, so everything you, and everyone else has told me is noted and will be given much thought.



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PaulW_NJ

12-08-2006 14:05:50




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
third party image

Thanks for all of your helpful comments and information. Here"s what it looks like. Going to give it a try and see what I can do with it!



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Mike M

12-08-2006 10:12:15




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
For free I'd take it for nothing else if it was a floor model you could use it to anchor a vise too. Or sell it on ebay and use the extra money on a more usefull milling machine or lathe.



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Easy1

12-08-2006 09:43:15




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
If it's free or cheap, take it. It does use some space, but they are nice for what they do. I used to rough out die sections, hand feeding, to cut to the line. Long time ago.



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Davis In SC

12-08-2006 07:23:07




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
If you have the room, a Shaper is a nice machine to have.. One of the best things about a shaper is the fact that a 3-dollar toolbit should be good for years of work, as compared to buying cutters for a milling machine.$$$ One thing about a shaper, when the ram moves forward, there is no stopping it!!! Setting up work in the vise, taking measurements, etc, I never trusted the clutch, especially the belt- tightening type on smaller machines. I always cut off the drive motor, before reaching in the work zone.

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Bud in NC

12-08-2006 07:03:57




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Couple more things about shapers - you need High Speed or Cobalt Steel cutting tools - NOT carbide tipped! As great as carbide cutters are, carbide doesn't like sudden impact. Make sure that puppy is well anchored to a good concrete floor, too! When a shaper is really working, the floor vibrates, the "clap block" is steady slamming and big, blue "toe nails" are flying - they're HOT! The length of the cutting stroke is ajustable - make sure you have enough clearance from your wall - a shaper wouldn't hesitate to install a new window for you....
Shapers are good tools if you learn how to use them. The company I worked for opted to keep shapers in the shops long after they should have been replaced by mills but there were only a few of us who bothered to use the shapers. Here's some more shaper info -

Link

and a link to the type cutter blank you'll need ->Link

Also,>Link a link to the Practical Machinist board - my knowlege of work with a shaper is 20+ years old - their's should be much more current and someone there should have a link to instructions for grinding the cutters - and it'd make a lot more sense than what I'd jot down...

Link

Post some pics of your new toy for us!

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TimV

12-08-2006 06:00:55




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Paul: A shaper is indeed used to make keyways, but it can be used to flatten or remove metal in a thousand different ways. While the shaper has pretty much been put out to pasture by the milling machine, in a small shop where production speed is not a big concern there are a lot of uses for a shaper. The link below has a good writeup on shapers in general, and there are a number of other shaper reference works around the Net. They have enjoyed a bit of a resurgence of late because they can usually be picked up cheaply and are quite handy in a small, minimally tooled shop.

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JayWalt

12-08-2006 02:29:28




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
I operated a keyway cutting machine, or scaper. I used it to make keyways in the bores of semi steering knuckles. Each knuckle weighed about 90lbs before machining and about 60 after. The broach in this machine was 6 foot long!! It was hydrauliculy operated and only required one pass.
Why would you not take it? It's free and its metal!! If anything take it to a salvage yard if it turns out to be a POS, or sell it on ebay =)

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Hendrik

12-08-2006 01:29:10




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
A shaper basically works like a one bottom plow. The "plowed dirt" is removed as chips. The beginning and end of each stroke of the cutting tool should be "in the air" and not in the matarial being shaped, so this machine is not suitable for making keyways in shafts but can do a good job of making keyways in bores of pulleys, gears, etc. Dedicated machines for making keyways in bores use a broach; works a lot faster than with a shaper.

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Harold Hubbard

12-08-2006 04:43:58




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to Hendrik, 12-08-2006 01:29:10  
Actually you can use it to make keyways in shafts. You just have to drill a hole at the end of the keyway, or both ends if it is in the middle of the shaft.

Another good thing about a shaper for the home shop is that it uses simple one point tools that you can grind yourself out of square stock. The price of milling cutters, especially larger or specially shaped ones will make you choke, and they can't be easily resharpened without special machinery.

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Coloken

12-07-2006 21:43:02




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
In shop we used one (shaper)to make anvils out of a piece of railroad track. Slow, but lots of fun.



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Pooh Bear

12-07-2006 20:08:55




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
I'd take it in a heartbeat.
A shaper can be very useful around the shop.
It can do almost everything a mill can do,
and some things that a mill can't do.

Fell out of favor mostly because of their size.
They take up a lot of room for what they do.
And what they do, they do very slowly.

Still, I would love to have one.

Pooh Bear



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XRogerX

12-07-2006 20:05:11




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 Re: Machinist question in reply to PaulW_NJ, 12-07-2006 19:57:24  
Take it. Shapers are very useful, but not as versatile as a milling machine. They are not cost effective to operate in a production environment, but I'm sure you would find a million uses for it. If you ever need to cut an internal keyway, you will thank your lucky stars for it. Can't beat the price, and if you don't find it particularly useful, you will have no trouble selling it on.



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