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Electric circuit testers troubleshooting

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BobOHIO

12-06-2006 06:44:57




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My friend has an apartment and all power went dead. Changed all fuses in the box with no results. Called electric company and they said power on their end was fine. So went to Sears and bought a circuit tester that flashes and beeps when held near a live circuit (about the size of a pen). When I hold it to the fuse box it beeps also when I hold it to all light switches and receptacles it beeps. But, if I even hold it up to the refrigerator door, lamp, radio it beeps. But, nothing in the place works. Are these little testers reliable? Or is there some other problem going on? Any ideas? Thank you for any help. Bob

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BobOHIO

12-07-2006 19:11:36




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 Circuit tester update in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
I went to Sears and bought a digital meter. Also a receptacle tester with three small lights that diagnose recept problems. I plugged it into an outlet and didn't light at all. Checked them with meter and read 1 volt. Went down to fuse box. It has two sets of main fuses (4 cartridges) and I pulled them. On the one set I got readings of 120 volts and 109 volts. The other set was 0 volts for both. Would that mean the problem is in the meter or box? The small audible tester still beeps at all switches etc, but meter shows 1 volt. At this point I know I'm over my head and they will need a professional, but I'm curious about my findings. I really appreciate all of your help and great knowledge of information. Bob

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MarkB_MI

12-07-2006 20:13:28




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 Re: Circuit tester update in reply to BobOHIO, 12-07-2006 19:11:36  
Bob,

It's hard to follow what you were measuring. Were you measuring from the hot to ground or hot to neutral? Or were you measuring across the vacant fuse contacts?

If you are reading from hot to neutral, readings of 120 on one phase and 109 on the other would indicate a bad connection on the phase that's reading 109 volts. Please read my earlier post and make all the measurements I suggested. If you're not sure what's what, then you would be wise to leave it to a licensed electrician.

A reading of 1 volt rms on a digital multimeter is probably noise, indicating an open circuit. The input impedance of the meter is so high that it will measure voltage just from the noise picked up by the wiring. The receptacle tester has a lower input impedance and requires a certain amount of voltage to operate. Understand, however, that the purpose of the receptacle tester is NOT to determine if the circuit will provide adequate current. It is only meant to check that the receptacle has proper polarity and is grounded.

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BobOHIO

12-08-2006 05:24:43




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 Re: Circuit tester update in reply to MarkB_MI, 12-07-2006 20:13:28  
Hi Mark- I was measuring across the vacant fuse contacts.



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MarkB_MI

12-08-2006 15:16:15




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 Re: Circuit tester update in reply to BobOHIO, 12-08-2006 05:24:43  
Hi Bob,

If you were reading across the two contacts for a single fuse, then you were not making a meaningful measurement. All voltage measurements must be made to a reference, usually neutral or ground (which should be the same).

In the case of reading across the fuse contacts, you can get readings anywhere from zero to 120 volts, but they are totally meaningless. For example, if all the loads on that phase are turned off, you would read zero volts, regardless of whether or not you have power. Turn on one load, though, and you'll read 120 volts even if there is a bad connection in the circuit.

I recommend you call an electrician on this. I'm afraid you're going to hurt yourself.

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BobOHIO

12-09-2006 17:57:06




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 Re: Circuit tester update in reply to MarkB_MI, 12-08-2006 15:16:15  
Hi Mark- I think you're right about getting help. I do appreciate all of your advice. You gave me some good info and I learned some new things. I will leave this to a professional. Thanks again. Bob



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Charles (in GA)

12-06-2006 14:32:50




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
Does your friend OWN the apartment? If not, call the apartment maintence, you've done your part with the fuse swapping, any more than thet and the problem belongs to the maintenance man.

Charles



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Stan in Oly, WA

12-06-2006 14:16:46




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
Hi Bob,

This is a great example of the amazingly good information you can get on this site---in case anyone didn't notice.

All the best, Stan



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dr.sportster

12-06-2006 13:56:57




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
One other thing if he just had cable installed the cable guy drilled from behind the tv into the service cable coming across the crawl space from meter to panel.Fixed many of those on overtime when tenant got home from work and had problems.



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dr.sportster

12-06-2006 13:45:07




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
You should unplug computers and other electronic loads before you continue troubleshooting because if the neutral is lost on the way to the panel but still spliced in a box with a three wire the backfeed from phase a to phase b through the neutral connection in splicebox will give 208 volts.What is described below with the pump backfeed.[forgot which guy just said it.]By the way that tick tester is using your body as a capacitor.They are handy but dont tell the whole story.Leave lamps plugged in,lights on and pound on wall by each box with your fist before opening.Somtimes you get lucky and sometimes you open almost every box in the house.Once I jumped down from an attic and heard a kid yell "hey my tv just came back on"the burnt receptacle was in his bedroom.

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glennster

12-06-2006 13:39:57




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
those little cricket testers that look like a pen will read any amount of voltage, so it is probably picking up stray power. you need either a dvom, vom or wiggy type to read actual voltage. teh cricket is good for a quick check to see if there is power, but a meter is the best way to see whats there



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glennster

12-06-2006 12:02:14




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
go to your home center, pick up a tester called a wiggy. has two wires, reads voltage and also will rattle when you have power. go to your main panel, remove cover to expose innards. be careful, at this point all the circuits are exposed, if you lost the neutral, and you complete a circut with your hands ect.....it will be bad. you should have 3 cables coming in the service panel, usually at the top. 2 of them should be 110 volt hots, the 3rd the neutral. the two hots will go into the bank of breakers or fuses. the 3rd will connect to the neutral buss, you may have a 4th wire to the ground buss too if it is a newer box. put the wiggy probes on the two 110v hots, the wiggy should read 220volts. if you dont get power here, you have a problem from the box to the meter. next put one probe on one of the 110v hots and the other to the neutral bar. you should get 110v here. do the other hot the same way. if no reading test from each hot and putthe other probe on the neutral wire itself, not the buss. this will show if the neutral is lost at the buss connection. if you are showng power at all these tests, your main breaker is probably blown, trip it and reset the main breaker, if it is the fuse type, it will have cartridge fuses, 60 amp, 100 amp, ect, replace the cartride fuses. if you still have no power, call a licensed electrician in, because its probably a serious condition, and you could injure or kill yourself quik

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BobOHIO

12-06-2006 11:44:01




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
Thanks everybody. I'll use a VOM and look for an open neutral. Would that be why when I would pass the small tester near the fridge/lamp/anything plugged in, it would beep? Thank you. Bob



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MarkB_MI

12-06-2006 17:29:56




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 11:44:01  
Those testers only sense the presence of an electromagnetic field. They will not tell you if the power will support any sort of load. Note also that you need to be careful using digital multimeters, since their high input impedance will cause them to read voltage in the presence of a field.

Do the following AC voltage checks:

Hot to Hot (should be ~240 Vrms)
Hot A to ground (should be ~120 Vrms)
Hot B to ground (should be ~120 Vrm)
Hot A to neutral (s/b ~120 Vrms)
Hot B to neutral (s/b ~120 Vrms)
neutral to ground (s/b 0 Vrms)

Check first with no load (breakers off), then with a load (breakers on). If at any time you get readings significantly different that what they should be, start looking for a bad connection.

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tech4

12-06-2006 11:08:18




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
I agree it sounds like open neutral but a small digital volt/ohmmeter would have been a better test for power. If the neutral is open then any 240 volt devices (stoves-ovens-water heaters) should work ok. Only the 120 volt devices should be inop.



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kidbob

12-06-2006 10:58:37




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
I think the neutral is open. Make sure a 110 volt load is turned on so the power will back feed down the neutral, then put the tester to the neutral near the meter. If you don't get voltage the break is closer to the load, if you do get voltage the break is closer to the source. Keep moving until you locate the open neutral.



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Sam#3

12-06-2006 09:51:25




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
My little story probably doesn't apply in your case. I'll agree with loss of neutral as others have suggested but it will demonstrate the short comings of the audible tester.
My farm system is simple. Meter pole with a disconnect box, two line fuses and it acts a the splitting terminal for the house and well house.
On one visit I lost water while takeing a shower, which meant it was going home time. Taking a quick voltage reading at the disconnect box showed 120v on drop side of one fuse and 109v on the other referenced to ground/neutral. The pump wasn't running but the house had lights. My first thought was 'no need to check fuses, voltage on both drop side.' The next day I returned to check the fuses and do some testing. Pulled first fuse checked with ohm-meter and good. Second fuse open. Volts still the same. It took some thinking then a supervisors slap to forehead!* The pump motor forms a loop across the drop so the 109v was acually the drop across the pump motor! I suppose I would have tried a spare fuse but since I couldn't find one it would have been a while.
Get a good VOM. You don't need a Fluke. An inexpensive Wally's will do.
*The reason supervisors have sloped foreheads. :)

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John T

12-06-2006 09:08:01




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
I agree with Richard, regardless if the hot phase conductor circuit is perfect, nuttin works unless theres a return current path i.e. the Neutral. I doubt the tester is the problem, it sees a hot or else no beep.

Ive seen loose or unattached Neutrals happen so Id be checking the integrity (look for loose or arcing connectiions) at each n every Neutral connection in the panel and meter base etc.

Im unsure of the service entrance and panels n sub panels there, but you might wanna use a regular two wire tester or simple two wire voltage indicator lamp n check for voltage between the hot feeders n equipment grounds n neutrals at various locations to help track down the problem, but another problem is just cuz a low curent test lamp will glow dont mean the connections are good enough to work under normal higher amperage conditions.

John T

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Richard H.

12-06-2006 07:37:16




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 Re: Electric circuit testers troubleshooting in reply to BobOHIO, 12-06-2006 06:44:57  
They are good at telling you the circuit is hot but they don"t tell you squat about the neutral. You can loose the neutral starting at the meter, panel, so you need a better tester.or different at least.



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