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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! !

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Jiles

12-01-2006 08:38:30




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I did a search on this site and I don't think this has been discussed.I know that most of us are not concerned with this issue--in or tractors---but for older cars and trucks, this could be a serious problem. Do a google search for "Hot Rod" search their site for flat tappet and click on "How to prevent and Fix cam and lifter failure. Any other information about this issue would be helpful.




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Boley

12-02-2006 20:37:23




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 08:38:30  
I did some reading on this subject a few years ago.I began using Rotella T 15W40 for my older gasoline engines as a result of what I think I learned about the importance of the zinc additive.I don't know of any down side to using it,cost is about the same as other name brand oil.The Rotella has an API service rating of SJ/SL for gasoline engines although it is marketed as CI-4 plus diesel oil.Boley

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Jiles

12-01-2006 17:20:47




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 08:38:30  
Thanks, Gerald, for this information.



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BUDD

12-01-2006 12:21:09




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 08:38:30  
What is considered a "flat tappet"? Is a small block chevy with hyd lifters (80s) one? What about a 2 cylinder JD? Teach me here, please!

Thanks BUDD



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Jon Hagen

12-01-2006 12:40:51




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to BUDD, 12-01-2006 12:21:09  
Most car/pickup engines changed from flat tappet to roller cams in the mid to late 80,s to early 90,s. With a tractor engine,unless it is Detroit diesel or Cummins powered,it will have a flat tappet cam. This is a serious deal that can be fixed as long as the zinc phosphate additive is still added to Diesel motor oil.As emissions rules tighten on diesel engines,diesel engine oil will also lose this additive. After that we will have to brew our own using a product like GM EOS to add to the oil in our old flat tappet cam engines.

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Bus Driver

12-01-2006 12:37:59




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to BUDD, 12-01-2006 12:21:09  
BUDD, both of those have flat tappets.



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Aaron Ford

12-01-2006 09:54:07




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 08:38:30  
Yeah, that might have been my post. It was based on the removal of ZDDP from gasoline grade oils due to their effect on oxygen sensors. The down side was that flat tappet lifters and other sliding friction points no longer get the additive they need to prevent galling and wear. The additive is no longer needed in current production autos due to no one running a flat tappet cam anymore. The current workaround is to use the diesel grade oils. This should protect your investment until they change the formulation of the diesel oils too. Cheers Aaron

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Gerald J.

12-01-2006 08:50:41




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 08:38:30  
I posted a long post over on the unofficial allis page several weeks ago. It wasn't received well. I can't give a link.

Gerald J.



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Jiles

12-01-2006 10:02:15




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Gerald J., 12-01-2006 08:50:41  
I think people should receive this. It could cost them an expensive repair. We live in an ever changing world and many issues are thought to be unimportant. To be honist, I shrugged this issue off a few weeks ago but I belong to a British Car Club and this was discussed at length. I have since changed all my vehicles that use flat tappets to Chevron Dello 400. Never would I have thought I would do this.

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Gerald J.

12-01-2006 16:40:39




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jiles, 12-01-2006 10:02:15  
I found several links, including Harley owners. Do a google search on ZDDP, the additive acronym, and many will turn up.

Other than being a bit stiff leading to hard winter starts and poorer fuel economy, I don't think there is anything wrong with 15W40 diesel / gasoline oils, whether Delo (which I don't find in local stores) or Rotella. Though for my '98 F-150 Ford insists that oil thicker than the originally specified 5W30 won't get through the fine oil passages properly. And ever since I bought it second hand with 21,000 miles, it has sounded like the rod bearings were a tittle loose. Before I got the owner's manual, I topped it up with a quart of Rotella 15W40 and it immediately lost that rod bearing rattle. Now it has 94,000 miles and nothing has changed, except that Motorocraft oil has gone to a "synthetic blend" that seems to stick to the journals better for less rattle.

Further, the internet research that I did last month indicates that oils type SJ and earlier have not had a reduction of ZDDP, and a certain fraction of the oils on the shelves around here are rated SJ, SL, SM as a combination while some are only rate SJ. Its pretty sure that oils rated only SM have drastically reduced ZDDP. At the same time there are one or two brands rated SF "for older engines." I've not detected there is any ZDDP reduction in SJ and SF oils. And it may be that synthetic oils don't need the ZDDP to protect sliding lifters.

I'm torn on my F-150 between keeping on using the Motorcraft synthetic blend and sticking with a strictly SJ oil. For my 2002 VW Golf, the next oil change will probably be an SJ oil. Right now top ups (has an oil pan leak) are being made with Motorcraft oil.

The oil and auto maker's web pages all say SM is the best lube ever for ALL engines of any age. Your google search on ZDDP will turn up hundreds of those all with exactly the same politically correct text.

Gerald J.

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B-maniac

12-01-2006 20:13:41




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Gerald J., 12-01-2006 16:40:39  
I read the same Hot Rod article and I don't believe the lack of the additive will have ANY affect on STOCK engines with STOCK valve spring pressures. A FEW race engines have had what they BELIEVE is oil related cam and lifter wear problems. Why arent all the cams on pre-roller cam engines wearing out? There are plenty of reputable race engine builders that have undoubtedly read the article and haven't changed to those oils with the additive. Improper break-in is the root of all cam and lifter failures. After PROPER break-in , regular or synthetic oils will do just fine. Prolonged idleing is another thing that will wipe out a cam. Old muscle cars idleing in parades and race cars idleing in the staging lanes. That's where the cam problems come from. No amount of additives are going to help if they can't get to the lobes because of exessive idleing. The lobes are not oiled by pressure.

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Gerald J.

12-02-2006 10:08:42




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to B-maniac, 12-01-2006 20:13:41  
There certainly is a lot of noise in some places and others claim SM oil is the greatest ever for all engines.

I know some Ford Aerostar V-6 engines tend to wear the cams round and that started long before the supposed loss of slippery oil additive.

Gerald J.



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Jon Hagen

12-02-2006 10:38:26




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Gerald J., 12-02-2006 10:08:42  
I remember when the early 70's Ford pinto's had the early 2 L OHC engines with those slider type rocker arm/cam followers.They were a poor design compared to the half rolling,half sliding friction of a conventional flat tappet cam with rotating lifters. They had the cam rifle drilled and a lube hole drilled in each cam lobe to pressure oil the lobe/follower,yet they had short cam life. The few I know of that had well over 100K on a cam were run with HD diesel oil,I think an API CD spec,so I suspect the diesel additive package does have an effect. I sure would hate to tear up a good older engine because of the wrong oil used, when the HD diesel spec oil is avalible for the same price. What would be the advantage of using an oil that is formulated for the newer roller cam engines which have no need of the ZDDP additive ?.

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Gerald J.

12-02-2006 11:50:37




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Jon Hagen, 12-02-2006 10:38:26  
I had one of those 2L pintos and that engine ran for decades after I sold it (with bent door). It never had any special oil, it still may be in running condition on a farm though the body past the rear wheel openings is reportedly only held up by the roof.

Taking ZDDP out of oil makes catalytic converters last longer when the engine starts burning oil. That's the excuse I see.

Gerald J.



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Aaron Ford

12-03-2006 19:24:15




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 Re: Serious Motor Oil Property changes-- ! ! ! ! in reply to Gerald J., 12-02-2006 11:50:37  
But my tractor doesn't have a catlytic converter.

Nor does any common equipment manufactured prior to the mid 70's. Most engines swapped to roller and ohc setups in the 80's. So I will agree that engines built after the 80's will likely not need the stuff... The stuff built before the mid 70's will not be hurt by it. So the only problem I see is if you own a early 80's car, truck, or other catalytic converter equipped engine you will need the additive but it will damage your converter.

I admit that even with new valvesprings, I likely do not have the pressures to necessitate the ZDDP. But...

My recent $869 dollar rebuild kit coupled with a $477 dollar machine shop bill will likely have me reaching for the diesel oil for the break-in then researching the proper synthetic. I only have one crank grind left til I have a high dollar boat anchor. I'll take the ZDDP.

Your Pinto ran with the additive the entire time you owned it and after. The oil you bought was formulated with it. It was removed around 1999. Cheers,

Let's go Mountaineers!

Aaron

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