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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Mature vision/welding

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RustyFarmall

11-25-2006 07:25:45




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Does anyone else over the age of 50 have this problem? I am having a hard time seeing the mark after striking the arc, do I need a darker lens or what?




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T_Bone

11-26-2006 05:36:17




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Hi Rusty,

First thing you need to do is go get a pair of glass reading glasses at the eye doc. You can have them made for any focal length for the type of vision that you have. So be sure to tell the eye Doc about how far you want to see (weld) away from your face.

Example: Mine are made to cover from 8" out as I can see well at 0 to 8". I also have tri-focals and the Doc incorperates the "no line" tri-focal into the lens. This lets me see all my welds no matter what the focal length that I need.

This will elimanate any need for a external cheeter lens.


There is a difference in a plastic lens and a all glass lens.

A plastic lens will create a weld puddle distortion of two weld puddles with-in the lens area. One phoney weld puddle and the real weld puddle. This distortion can be seen best seen while Tig welding but is present under all types of welding.

A all glass lens will stop the distortion. The best glass lens I found is called a Cool-Ray lens. The glass cool-ray lens has a layer of gold over the glass face. They cost about $60eh but well worth it as your eyes will not be tired nor burned at the end of 8hrs of welding. Being there is a layer of gold on the outside of the lens, you want to use a fiber gasket, then a clear glass lens, then the glass cool-ray lens, then another clear glass lens on the inside.

UpDate:
I looked at my last gold Cool-Ray lens and they now have a clear glass lens, then a gold layer, then a clear glass lens. but that still will require seperate clear lens before and after the shielding lens as I described above.

There is a gold colored plastic lens, this is not the correct lens and cost about $15!

Autodarkening welding hoods:
I'm not a fan of the auto hoods. No1, they use a plastic lens and you get weld puddle distortion. No2, there heavy and your neck will let you know it at the end of the day. No3 and the big one, what comes first to make the autodarken feature work? The ARC strike! so your eyes will pick-up a small amount of arc flash before the lens darkens.

T_Bone

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rad

11-27-2006 12:06:52




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to T_Bone, 11-26-2006 05:36:17  
T-Bone with respect to auto darkening helmets, I agree with you about the additional weight, but disagree with you about the 'flash'. There are two types of auto darkening circuits - those that use batteries and must be 'turned on' before use and those that use photo cells to generate power. In my (albeit limited) experience, first kind do not have the flash problem, while the second most certainly do particularly in low light conditions - like my barn. I bought a Miller (way too expensive) helmet with a battery that solved the flash problem. I defintely prefer it over a 'manual' darkening (read flip the window or whole helmet variety).

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RustyFarmall

11-26-2006 06:59:24




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to T_Bone, 11-26-2006 05:36:17  
T-BONE, thank you for the info. I have never used an auto darkening helmet, but my impression of them is just as you have described. I do have a gold lens in one of my helmets, but I did not pay very much for it so I'll bet it is the plastic lens, which explains why it didn't help that much. I already wear glasses with bi-focals but it is time to visit the Dr. for a check-up so I will ask him a few questions. I don't do a lot of welding, but I do have a project in mind that will require me to see what I am doing, both for functionality and final appearance. Thanks to everyone who responded.

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Bill in Ohio

11-25-2006 18:19:24




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Rusty, I sympathise with you. I pretty well agree with the other advice here, with the exception of the cheaters. I tried them and kinda got a sea sick feeling out of them, most likely they were way too powerful.
Anymore I wear trifocals, and, truthfully, I can just barely do any welding with them, emergency use only!
So, I had the optometrist set me up with a pair of safety glasses for the purpose. With those and a good Speedglass helmet I am in pretty decent shape. The glasses are ok for most all the shop work unless I lose something.
If you really need bifocals to weld with, I have seen them with the close-up spots at the top of the frame, supposed to be easier to stare out of the helmet.

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135 Fan

11-25-2006 21:00:21




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Bill in Ohio, 11-25-2006 18:19:24  
Cheaters take getting used to as well. If you wear bi-focals, you should have a single prescription for welding with. That way you can concentrate more on your weld than making sure your helmet is in just the right position so you're not switching between the 2 strenghts of the bi-focals. Hope this helps. Dave



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Bud in NC

11-25-2006 16:49:17




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
I'm 55 and was a welder in power plants years - my last 15 years were at a desk in the "head shed" ....kinda, anyway..... I kept "escaping" back to the "real world" every chance I got! I still do welding for neighbors. I can't see to weld without my cheater now! Old age AIN'T for wimps!

1) you need an Auto-Darkening hood - a GOOD one - NOT a $29.95 special! Go to a REAL welding supplier for it!
2) Don't go less than shade 10.
3) "Cheater" lenses are cheap. Try a few - go with the "lightest" mag you can!
4) Make sure the cheater lens will fit your new hood before you buy either of them!
5) As for the OLD type of hoods, gold lenses are great - that's what I used to use - BUT - if they get even a *SMALL* scratch you're gonna burn your eyes - BIG TIME! The plus side of them is that you can see through the smoke better with a gold lens & the color is more natural.
6) It's MUCH easier to use the auto darkening lens than having to learn how to position the rod and then jerk your head to drop your hood so you can weld! 7) And probably the most important thing I have to add - If "135 Fan" or "T-Bone" give any advice, use it!

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T_Bone

11-26-2006 06:04:57




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Bud in NC, 11-25-2006 16:49:17  
Hi Bud,

I'm always very cautious on what advice I read as one could go into the archives of this forum and spend some time reading and sure sound like an expert in "other" threads when in fact that just isn't so.

This has happened several times over the years but is usually caught with some huge blundering mistakes contained in the info presented.

T_Bone



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135 fan

11-25-2006 17:36:24




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Bud in NC, 11-25-2006 16:49:17  
Thanks Bud. There is a lot of good advice on this forum. I've done a lot of oil and gas related welding using mostly stick but also MIG and flux-core. You need to be able to burn 1/4 inch rods if you're doing large vessels. I have seen pipe welders roll 4 inch heavy wall pipe and cap with 1/4 inch! You have to go pretty fast and not let the puddle run in front of the arc or you've got big problems. 3/16 does a much nicer looking cap but is a touch slower. Some shops give bonuses for more inches of weld per shift. I've done a little bit of TIG but not alot. TIG is kind of a specialty in itself. T_Bone is the expert on TIG welding as he has done a lot of it. I bet you know a lot more than you let on having worked in power plants. Dave

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Bud in NC

11-26-2006 04:56:25




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to 135 fan, 11-25-2006 17:36:24  
After I had hip replacements done and wound up in the office I used to explain that I was a LOT better at giving dumb looks than good answers!
About 20 years ago I was "certified" for stick & TIG CS welding. TIG was a 3/32" E70S open butt on 2" sch 80 and the stick was a 3/32" 7018 open butt on 6" sch 40 - 7018 OB is not fun - especially on sch 40!



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135 Fan

11-26-2006 10:22:44




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Bud in NC, 11-26-2006 04:56:25  
7018 root? Up here the initial B-pressure test is on 6 in. sched. 80 pipe. 1/8 6010 root and 3/32 or 1/8 7018 fill and cap. It's done in position from bottom to top but a 1/4 of the pipe has to be done in the horizontal position. Then it's stamped on the end with odd and even numbers. The pipe is cut into strips and ground flat. Then the tester bends the strips in a press. He decides if odd or even is root bend or face bend. You are allowed a 1/8 maximum flaw counting all 8 bends. It's actually about 60% welder skill and 40% nerves to pass the test because a lot of guys are really anxious. I think you have 3 1/2 hours to complete the test. You use most of it. The retest is easier. You can do it on 2 inch pipe and get your small bore ticket at the same time. In the apprentice training we did 7018 roots on some of the tests. Every test is bent. Pressure tickets have to renewed every 2 years. Dave

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135 Fan

11-26-2006 10:38:17




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to 135 Fan, 11-26-2006 10:22:44  
I should add that your tacks have to be part of the root pass. You can't grind them out. Every step of the test has to be inspected before you can continue. Some guys fail on the tacks! 1/2 inch long maximum so you can feather the ends out. On the retest on 2 inch you take the tacks out. Dave



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Bud in NC

11-27-2006 03:37:21




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to 135 Fan, 11-26-2006 10:38:17  
Sounds similar....and yep - it was a 3/32" 7018 OB root pass in 6G position - NOT fun! QC inspected fit up, tacks & "feathering" the tacks, root pass (with small mirrors to check the inside, too), hot pass, cap, the way the "straps" were cut from the coupon and finally the bend tests. It took QC longer to inspect the stuff than it did to weld it!
After you passed the test you had to document a weld job or 3 hours or welding practice time at least every 30 days or you'd be retesting.
A lot of what we did was junk yard type work - welding up holes in precipitators - basically welding rust to air! When we did get a pipe job it was gravy work after that!

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135 Fan

11-27-2006 08:59:15




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Bud in NC, 11-27-2006 03:37:21  
The nice thing working in a vessel or piping shop is that they usually have an engineer so they can just take one of your X-Rays to keep your ticket current. You still have to renew your tickets every 2 years with the proper test but it's on nice new pipe so it's a little easier. If they want a stronger root it's usually TIG. I have heard of 7018 roots but it's not very common. Some inspectors are way too picky. Had an inspector that must have had telescope vision. He looked inside a 2 in. pipe and said the second weld from the end is a little heavy on the root. It was about 15 feet inside the pipe after other welds and were all nice smooth MIG roots. I think sometimes they're just trying to feel more important or something. Some inspectors are really good though. That one particular guy was pretty well known for being overly picky. Most of the big oil companies hired him to do their inspections. It is good to be picky but within reason. Dave

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OK-AL

11-25-2006 15:54:12




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
I went to school last year and learned to weld properly. Started my own business this year. I'm older than dirt and discovered in school that I couldn't see where I was going while the younger kids didn't have any problem at all.

Two things I use to help. One, an auto-darkening hood was a must-have. I can adjust the darkness setting for the light conditions. I also have a 2X multiplier (available at any reputable welding supply store).

Two, I brought a light with me at school and use it in my shop. If the available overhead light wasn't good enough, I plugged in my own ligh and adjusted it to shine directly on the material. I discovered this after I found out that I didn't have any problems outdoors in the sunlight.

Finally, train your eyes to look at the puddle, not at the light from the arc. Welding is a skill and it does take time to learn. Like my teacher said: practice, practice, practice. Then do it some more. (grin)

OK-AL

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JOHN HARMON

11-25-2006 15:07:22




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
I wear Tri-Focals so I have to use a Helmet with a large View Lense.Some times it is hard to focus by tipping your head a bit but overall the 5"x5" View lense works very well.



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RustyFarmall

11-25-2006 14:39:26




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Thanks guys, You've given me some ideas. I have one helmet with the gold lens, but it is the small lens. Might have to try getting the gold lens for the helmet with the large lens. I like the idea of the auto darkening helmets, but my problem starts after the arc is struck, so I don't think that auto lens would be of much use. I am not a professional welder, but I have been playing around with a welder since I was about 16. This vision problem has just developed in the last few years, and yes. I do wear bi-focals.

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ken in texas

11-25-2006 11:00:20




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Yeah it's tough to give it up even when age and poor eyesight tells you that you should.I learned to weld while in highschool and did farm welding as long as I farmed.now after several eye surgerys for detached retinias and lots of lasers to hold every thing in place I still don't want to give it up.Guess I should maybe someday but not yet.



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G Hosafat

11-25-2006 10:30:55




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Gold lenses in the hood and nowadays I use the 2.0 reading lens saftey glasses they sell at the welders supply I use.

Stay away from those multiplier lenses they just make all that fuzzy vision bigger and just as fuzzy.



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135 Fan

11-25-2006 10:03:57




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Yes some older welders [no offence] have a little more difficulty seeing what's going on. Especially if they are used to wearing bi-focals. First thing to do is make sure your lens and cover plates are super clean or new. #10 lens should be fine. Don't go any lighter. Check the lens. I've seen seen lenses for cutting mistakenly be put in a welding helmet. That would be very bright and make it hard to see. Bad for the eyes too. Some people like the gold lenses. All they do is change the color of the arc. You have to make sure you don't scratch the gold covering as it will allow the light through and you could get a flash. That's the biggest reason for not using a gold lens. What you could get is a magnifier lens that goes behind the welding lens. They come in different strengths like reading glasses. You could try out a .25 or maybe a .5 and it should help. Use the weakest one possible that allows you to see what you're doing. I tried a guys helmet with a 2.50 [the highest] and it was hard for me to see what I was doing. Not because I'm blind but because it was like looking in a magnifying glass. It made the arc and puddle look bigger and about an inch away. I think using a strong "cheater" like this would be very hard on your eyes over time. You don't want to go more blind. Maybe the local welding supply has a demo booth and you could try a couple cheater lenses and see how they work. Start with the weakest one first. Hope this helps. Dave

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Stan in Oly, WA

11-25-2006 09:36:31




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Hi RF,

Did you used to be able to see the weld area well and now you can't, or did you start welding (or welding a lot more) after you were over 50 so you don't know how much better you might have been able to see it when you were younger?

Very young welding beginners often complain of the difficulty of seeing what they are trying to weld, and prove it by running their beads away from the joint. Old, highly experienced operators generally don't have this problem. I'm sure that a small proportion of people can naturally see the weld area very well and a similar number have an unusually hard time of it. For the most part though, experience seems to be the more important factor.

Like any skill that stretches one or more of a person's physical abilities to the limits, welding gets easier the more that you do it. The amount of experience a person has welding isn't accurately measured by the number of years they've been doing it, but by the number of hours. What I mean is that a 65-year-old person might truthfully state that they have been welding for over 50 years, which would make them seem very experienced. But the total amount of time they have spent behind an arc might be just a few tens of hours---hardly enough time to be out of the novice stage compared to the time put in by a welding professional.

I don't know how old you are but I know that if you started some completely unfamiliar activity today, you wouldn't be very good at it. Then you would have the choice of saying, "I guess I'm just too old for this," and giving it up, or putting a lot of time and effort into it until you got good at it so that you could say, "Age doesn't really matter, only determination."

All the best, Stan

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jhill52

11-25-2006 11:00:57




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 11-25-2006 09:36:31  
I have welded for over 30 yrs. I could see the weld clearly. Now Bifopcals and age made it difficult. Like I said an auto darkening helmet helped me.

Jerry



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NEsota

11-25-2006 08:46:32




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
old, Please tell us more about "gold lense" or give us a link to information about it.



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old

11-25-2006 09:54:53




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to NEsota, 11-25-2006 08:46:32  
The GOLD lens are 24 carat gold plated and do a good job of saveing your eyes from welder burn. Any good welder place should have them or be able to get them. Big problem with them is if you scratch them they are then bad. I have a cover lens on both sides of my gold lens, and all my helmits have the gold lens in them, plus a spare in the tool box. By the way I'm a retired welder with many many hours behind the stick/gun. In my day I welded stick, mig and tig. I even welded a beer can up years ago

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135 Fan

11-25-2006 10:30:45




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to old, 11-25-2006 09:54:53  
Hey old, I didn't realize how much experience you had. You've probably got a few scars. Have you ever seen a cobalt blue lens? The glass is tinted like a standard lens but the arc is very dark blue and really easy to see what you're doing. I know a guy that does a lot of critical aircraft TIG welding that had one. I've looked all over trying to find one but don't know if they make them anymore. The glass dark lenses are better for visibility than the plastic ones. Plastic cover plates don't get covered with spatter. I've actually got too close welding and had the lens crack. Clean lenses make a big difference. Being able to see what you're doing is the most important aspect of getting a good weld. Dave

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JustLurking

12-02-2006 11:23:18




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to 135 Fan, 11-25-2006 10:30:45  
(having trouble with IE. Hope it's not repost)


I don't want to detract from this thread but I was lurking around due to a search on full view auto-darkening lenses. I must reply to 123 FAN about his question on cobalt blue lenses. Right to the point 'STAY AWAY FROM THEM!!!'. Now a little history on this lens that I got off a web site I don't remember, but it's contents explained what had happened to me years after it happened. Right after tig got popular and everyone was welding aluminum, welders started to experiment with lenses that would give better contrast between molten aluminum and the tough aluminum oxide that also forms (and upon overtemp leads to the dreaded dropout).Now the cobalt lens enters the picture. Tig welding aluminum with cobalt blue lenses is just AWESOME!!!. That color makes the molten metal and tough oxide contrast really pop out, but now the bad news is the glass used has NO! protection from UV and IR. A lot of welders were hurt by this lens, to the point that the welding industry got involved and stopped the promotion of this lens. The cobalt blue lens was 'barrowed' from the glass making industry and they have no problem with it. ----This is where you might find them if you chose not to heed my 'dire' warnings. :-) -----
Molten glass has very little IR and no UV radiation compared to us welders and we get a false sense of security while using this lens. We are not protected from the invisible bad components while it does a great job on the visible light. I am not aware of any lens manufacture that has taken the positives of that color and tried to combine it with the UV and IR protection we need. For all I know maybe it can't be done. So take a hint from old 'burned once again' and stay away. Now after that digression and back to the topic, I must agree 'Gold coated glass lenses' RULE!!!.

JustLurking

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old

11-25-2006 11:13:12




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to 135 Fan, 11-25-2006 10:30:45  
Never seen or heard of that type of lens. I started welding when I was around 16 years old, with a lincoln welder you could buy for $19.95 out of a magazine, not made by the true lincoln company. Then when I was in the navy a good friend was a hull teck and taught me a lot more. I have worked in boat factorys and dock companys. The boat place is where I learned to weld the beer can, I worked in the maintance dept there and not only welded but fixed all the welders and presses etc.

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135 Fan

11-25-2006 12:26:44




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to old, 11-25-2006 11:13:12  
That sounds interesting. I worked with a guy that came from Sweden that worked in a big ship yard. He said they gave him two stingers because they got so hot. Although it's not a good idea, most of the guys had a bucket of water to cool the stingers as well. I need to back to work and just took a cleaner type of job. I'll be working at West Edmonton Mall. They keep 3 welders busy just for the amusement park portion of the mall. They said everyday is something different. That's what I like and no working outside in -30 degrees. I could make more money somewhere else but it's a lot dirtier and noisier. Did enough of that. It's time I had a nicer job. Dave

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Ken Crisman

11-25-2006 08:06:51




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
No it isn't just you . I was welding a crack on my transmission case yesterday . Had a heck of a time staying in the V groove I had made . Got off line & burn't a small hole through the case . Then I spent over an hour trying to patch it . Hope my patch job hold ok . Just can't seem to see where I'm welding anymore . I even have a cheater inside my lens. I hope when I fill her up with oild that I have no leaks again .Time will tell . Good luck & God bless , Ken

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Coloken

11-25-2006 07:59:22




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Goes with the age. If you wear glases, you all most need a set that are made to focus at like maybe 18 inches. Reading glasses are for too close. Try holding some small item at the distance that the arc is and see if it is sharp. Got to have big window on helmet too if you have bi-focals.



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Fawteen - BINGO!

11-25-2006 13:20:28




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to Coloken, 11-25-2006 07:59:22  
I have a set ground for the time I spent working at the computer, about 24 to 30 inches focal length.

Didn't take me long to discover that they help a lot when welding too...



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old

11-25-2006 07:57:27




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
Rusty if I where you I would look into getting your self a GOLD lens. There not cheap but there the best you can have also. Gold lens are the only ones I will use for welding any more. Also if you need glasses for reading you might try haveing them on when welding. I know with me if I'm holding my head to close or to far away I have trouble welding but my eyes are getting bad and I have reading glasses

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hay

11-25-2006 07:29:22




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-25-2006 07:25:45  
i thought it was just me, like you said. i always had a hard time seeing where i was welding. i finally bought a welding helmet with the auto darkening lens and it helps tremendously for positioning and striking an arc and when the arc is gone the lens is clear again and it helps to see where i'm at. good investment for welding.



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jhill52

11-25-2006 08:57:19




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to hay, 11-25-2006 07:29:22  
The auto darkening helmet helped me too. I can see much better when welding with one, had gotten so I couldn't see much at all.

Jerry



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TimS in Mo

11-26-2006 11:33:22




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 Re: Mature vision/welding in reply to jhill52, 11-25-2006 08:57:19  
To things really help me when trying to weld hard to see things ( like reinforcing the hairline cracks in a loader bucket or some sheet metal that mounts a loder valve ).

First thing, auto darkening helmet...and keep the lens inside and out wiped off.

Second thing, a bright halogen light ( or two ) aimed at the work surface....That way even when the helmet damps down when the arc starts, there is still lots of light to see where that hairline crack is....

I was welding up inside the loader bucket and couldn't see the cracks once the arc was struck, so I put a halogen work light in there, aimed it at the cracks, I could see them just fine with the arc going...

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