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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Whats best stick or wire weld

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Boco

10-19-2006 10:14:02




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Building hitch to use tractor to move equiptment just wondering which might be stronger. Thanks for any reply Boco




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Boco

10-20-2006 06:15:01




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Thanks for all of info of people who know, I have a Millermatic 200 (about 16 years) I don't very much thats why I do practice from time to time, an have 035 wire. Nephew has (believe) 375 lincoln tig combo to use stick I did have welding class in high school and college but the sun an moon have come and gone many times since then, thanks again for all the replies. Boco



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135 Fan

10-20-2006 11:53:55




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-20-2006 06:15:01  
You should have said that these machines were available. Stick is stronger but done right the Millermatic 200 would work. They are good machines. Have fun Dave



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bill Stephens

10-19-2006 19:33:14




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Highlight the MIG must be done in NO wind conditions. The shield gas is blown away in little or no wind. Welding outside is a plus for stick weld. Also buy the best rod you can. Purity of the rod makes a big difference, A better quality rod with the same numbers will make a better weld, with the same welder and machine.



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135 Fan

10-19-2006 19:59:38




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to bill Stephens, 10-19-2006 19:33:14  
Ditto! Buy name brand rods. Keep 7018 in closed containers to keep them dry. Most shops keep them in an electrode oven but it isn't absolutely necessary. I remember getting porosity in mig welds on a skid and had to have someone stand behind me because the overhead heater 15 ft. above came on. The flux core wire that doesn't use shielding gas is for light duty welding only but can be used out doors. There is flux cored wires that are strong but you need an industrial welding machine. There was a nice hitch someone on one of these forums made. Can't remember where though. Draw up your plans first so you know all your measurements. You'll probably have it built by the time you read all this forum. Have fun Dave

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blg

10-19-2006 17:45:32




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
have welded all my life from ag shop in high school to retirement .not a pro but do ok,have welders, miller ac/dc,miller 35,miller portable a/c use them all. use the dc with 6011 or mig on root pass and then needle gun and finish with dc 7018. don`t trust the wire welder ,make sure that you have penetration .try butt welding two pieces together and then vise it up and bend backwards and you will see what kind of job you are doing. like this board,learn something every day.

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Bud in NC

10-19-2006 16:12:42




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
First off, it sounds like 135 Fan is GOOD! Sounds like he's been there and done it...and probably burned up the souviner Tee shirt on another job! I used to be a pipe welder in fossil & nuclear power plants. Now that I'm "retarded" I still do about all the welding for my neighbors. If I have something small like a gate latch or a bracket to hold tools I use a MIG welder with solid .035" wire and CO2/Argon mixed gas. Any "SERIOUS" welding I do is with a DC 7018 or stronger. I suppose that IF you beveled the joint and did multiple "stringer beads" and made sure you didn't have any "wagon tracks" you *might* be able to make a heavy weld with a home sized MIG welder - if you had time. The "duty cycle" on those is only about 15% or so - in other words, they burn up real easy.
Before you buy anything, get some experience - you'll be able to tell real soon what you're comfortable with. Check the technical schools. About al of them have night classes that include welding. There's no point in buying an expensive welder that you can't use - *UNLESS* you're gonna let us on this board know when you're gonna sell it *REAL* cheap 'cause you can't use it!
Another thing about the MIG welder is that you gotta buy a bottle of gas for it, too. The inital investment for a bottle is a $200+ on top of the cost MIG welder. It's less than $50 to refill the bottle. You can get flux cored wire - I used about 10 feet of the spool that came with my MIG welder - not worth the mess and splatter - to me, anyway. Bottom line is the stick welder & rods are stronger and cheaper the MIG welder - but the MIG welder is easier - especially on small stuff.
Good luck & let us know how it goes!

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135 Fan

10-19-2006 19:21:41




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Bud in NC, 10-19-2006 16:12:42  
Thanks Bud. I wish I still had all the "air conditioned" tee shirts I burn't up. I'd have enough rags for the next 20 years. Being easier isn't always better. A rough looking 7018 is still stronger than a smooth 7014 in most cases. The AC 7018 are a big improvement. I used to work with a lot of new apprentices because a lot of the older welders didn't have patience or want to share secrets. If I can help someone it is gratifying. Sometimes less than half an hour with someone experienced makes a ton of difference. They can show you what to look for. I was lucky because when I first took welding in high school, I had a very good and extremely experienced teacher. I don't know about a lot of things but I know about welding. Still there is tons of stuff I don't know about welding. I do know that when in doubt use 7018. Prep is important too. It is much easier to weld something when it fits nice with proper fit up. I was thinking of opening a shop with all the equipment and farmers and others could rent space to build or repair their projects. Sadly, I didn't get enough response from mail outs to rural communities. I have received great advice with my questions on these forums so I'll try to return the favour. It is raining and snowing up here in Alberta so I can't get anything done except look on these forums. I wish I would have discovered them sooner. Thanks again for the kind words Dave

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old

10-19-2006 11:58:43




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Stick makes a stronger weld. Its hard to beat a good old Lincoln buzz box for welding. The AC/DC ones are better then the just plain AC is. The first 2 numbers on the rod tell you how strong the rod/weld is as in 7014 and 7018 are both 70,000 lbs rod and the 6011 and 6013 is 60,000lbs rod. My self I use more 7014 then ant other rod and if you new to welding either 6011 or 7014 are you best bet to learn with. The 7018 rod works better with DC welders then it does with an AC machine, and yes they make a 7018 for AC but in my book it still doesn't work all that well. Retired welder by the way

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Stan in Oly, WA

10-19-2006 11:44:51




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Hi Boco,

There's another important variable in your situation: Will the equipment be moved along any public roads or only on your own property? If the latter, then the stakes aren't so high because an accident caused by the hitch failing would probably be no worse than just another situation you'd have to deal with. If you're a farmer, that's what you spend most of your time doing anyway---dealing with one thing after another. If you'll be on public roads then you have a legal, as well as a moral, obligation to get it right.

There really are too many variables to answer your question simply. Let me address some of the information you've already received which I think might point you in the wrong direction. The first 2 (or 3) digits of the numerical designation of a stick electrode do indicate its tensile strength (the force it takes to pull it apart) in psi. But so do the numbers for MIG wire. Thus, E-7018 rod and ER70S-6 solid wire are both 70,000 psi mild steel electrodes.

It's true that it's easier to make a good looking weld that's really a bad weld with wire feed than with stick, but it's also easier to make a good weld with wire. Stick is a difficult process to master. Knowing HOW to do stick right, and being able to do it are two different things. Unfortunately they're things that are about 10,000 sticks apart (maybe only 1,000-2,000 if you're precocious.) Once you learn what to do and what to look for with wire feed, you can start doing it pretty soon.

For practical purposes, anything above 70,000 psi should be considered a specialty electrode, not simply "stronger is better." The various stick electrodes from 8018 to 12018 are for very specific applications depending on the alloy composition of the steel being welded as well as the intended use of the equipment. For instance, Lincoln's Jet-LH 8018-C1 MR was designed for welding pipeline and equipment that will carry liquid ammonia; using it to weld your hitch because it's 10,000 psi stronger than 7018 wouldn't be a good choice.

If your project is for use only on your own property, go with whichever process you're most comfortable with and give it your best shot. If you're going to be on public roads, make sure you know what you're doing or get it done by someone who does.

All the best, Stan

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135 Fan

10-19-2006 14:59:23




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 10-19-2006 11:44:51  
Good advice. A few things to consider. E7018 stick and ER70S-6 M.I.G. are both low hydrogen processes meaning that they allow the least amount of hydrogen in the air into the molten weld puddle. Hydrogen causes cracking. Both of these filler metals have to have low temperature impact strength. 7014 doesn't. When I went through my appenticeship, only two electrodes were used. E6010 and E7018. They are both for dynamic loading, and when welding up plates with a "V" groove for 100% penetration, have to be able to be bent 180 degrees around a round die with no signs of cracking. They are bent after they have cooled off and are ground flat. MIG welds are tested this way also. You should never cool a weld with water. For an experiment we welded a test piece with 7018, cooled it with water and it still bent with no flaws. In a shop 7024 [jet rods] are common for tanks or holding checker plate on skids etc. 7018 is used for almost everything else from pressure vessels and piping to welding on heavy equipment. MIG is used for building a lot of new equipment like farm equipment etc. MIG is used extensively for putting in the root pass for vessels and piping which is filled and capped with 7018 and then must pass X-ray and ultrasound testing. 6010 is used for root passes in the field. Really critical work like aircraft and some vessels is done with TIG welding. I've worked on a lot of oil and gas equipment for use all over the world and have heard stories of equipment failing because it wasn't welded with rods designed for cold weather. I try to give the best advice possible based on my training and experience. If you want to use MIG, it will work, but use at least .035 wire and not .023 and a good 220 volt machine. I always recommend a name brand like Lincoln or Miller etc.. The downside is that a good MIG machine will cost a lot more than even a good AC DC stick machine and you still need shielding gas. A lot of farmers just have a buzz box. The best advice I can give would be to take a course at a trade school and make sure you can see what you're doing. Always try to hold the stinger or gun with two hands for better control than the one handed crash and burn method. If you already have a welder, get some scrap pieces and practice. Always watch what the puddle is doing and chip off the slag to get an accurate look at the weld. It takes practice but is one of the best things to know on the farm. Also don't weave your weld too wide. More passes is stronger than one big one because of finer grain structure in the weld metal. If you can master 7018 you can fix just about anything that needs welding. Good luck with your project. Dave

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135 Fan

10-19-2006 10:36:22




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Stick is stronger when done properly. Use 7018 electrodes for the most strength. They are a little harder to use, especially if all you have is an AC welder. A lot of people will use 6013 or 7014 because they are easier to use. They are for static loading only. You can buy 7018 AC rods that are easier to strike on AC machines. 7018 are made for dynamic loading, meaning things that twist and move under stress, as opposed to things that just sit there. MIG welding is more brittle. It can be strong but it is more prone to flaws. It is common for MIG to have cold lap and lack of fusion. The weld might look good but isn't fully penetrated at the edges. Mig is better on lighter gauge material but both processes take a lot of practice. I'm a welder and I've saved a lot of money and time by being able to fix and build my own stuff. Hope this helps. Dave

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Charles (in GA)

10-19-2006 10:35:14




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
Too many variables. Depends on the capacity and capability of the welding equipment and the capabilities of the person welding, and the materials being used.

AC or DC?, fluxed wire or gas shield?

Essentially, if you are using real thick stuff, you probably will do better with a stick, probably have more amps unless you have a really big wirewelder. Beyond that, its anyones guess.

Charles



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mjbrown

10-19-2006 10:28:25




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to Boco, 10-19-2006 10:14:02  
With sticks, the first two numbers represent the strength of the steel in the rod. E60=60,000#, E70=70,000# , E80=80,000# so the higher the first two numbers the stronger the steel. Last two numbers represent the flux type on the rod.



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135 Fan

10-19-2006 11:12:04




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 Re: Whats best stick or wire weld in reply to mjbrown, 10-19-2006 10:28:25  
You are right about the first two numbers being tensile strength. The third number dictates the position the rod is used, 1 being all position, 2 being flat and horizontal, 3 usually flat only but these aren't common. I've used some 7048 electrodes that were strictly for downhand welding. On vertical welding going up is almost always stronger than going down. The last number tells the type of coating, whether for static or dynamic loading, what type of slag, type of current and a bunch of other things as well. It is not a good idea to buy electrodes based on the tensile strength only. I thought I'd mention this because I've seen a lot of people get a welder and use what ever rods were the easiest to use. I usually recommend 7018 for most jobs [keep dry] but 6010 for DC or 6011 for AC are good for burning through paint and rust that can't be cleaned up. MIG welding can be very strong but has to be done inside. You can't always get things inside to repair them. If you're going to fix something, might as well fix it right. Make sure your lenses and cover plates are clean so you can see what you're doing. Happy welding Dave

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