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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

5hp breaker size

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paul

09-28-2006 14:16:40




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I need to put in an outlet for a 220v 1ph 5hp electric motor for a grain auger.

What size breaker does such use? Seems like they pull 25amps at the most so would think 30amp, but there has to be a lot of start-up current over & above.

I've got 60 amp there to draw from, the used auger motor seems to have a 30amp plug on it - but farmer-wired jobs one never knows if that is 'right' or not.

What's the standard on this?

--->Paul

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paul

09-29-2006 17:07:15




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
Thank you all. Good info from all.

Sounds like #6 wire (can get by with #8 if short run, but why chance a new curcuit...), 40 amp breaker. That's pretty much what I had bought already. :)

--->Paul



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saahlly

09-28-2006 18:11:27




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
call an eletrician????? ?



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Charles (in GA)

09-28-2006 17:33:02




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
430.248 says a 5 hp 1 ph AC motor at 230 volts has a full load current of 28 amps. Branch circuit conductors supplying a single motor (and nothing else) must be sized at least 125% of the motor's full load current. So you must use a conductor that is good for 35 amps min. Table 430.52 tells us that a 1 ph AC motor may have branch circuit protection of up to 800% (224 amp) of the full load current if an instantaneous trip breaker or 250% of the FLC (70Amp) using a standard inverse time breaker.

Reality says what others have already said, 40 amp breaker (marginal, I'd use 50 amp) and #8 wire. Wire size being dependent on temp rating, length, type of insulation, etc. you may need #6 to stay legal.

Also note if the installation is in a wet location you may need to use a ground fault circuit breaker$$$$$

Hope this helps or reinforced what others have said.

Charles

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CNKS

09-28-2006 17:17:23




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
Skipping all the technical stuff, when in doubt, go higher. I have 5 hp single stage, and a 7.5 hp two stage with magnetic starter, hooked together to run a sandblaster. Since the on-off pressures are different, they don't cycle properly, so I use the two stage alone for sandblasting. Anyway my main breaker box has a 70 amp breaker, the two stage has 40, the single stage 30. I can start them both at once and nothing trips.

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John T

09-28-2006 16:04:16




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
Paul, Lets start with:

My Uglys Electrical Reference shows a Single Phase 5 HP AC Motor draws 28 amps full load current at 230 volts, which would be a lil less at 240 volts (23 to 25 or so???).

Next, theres not one but two things that need to be protected. ONE the Motor needs thermal overload protection so the motor doesnt overheat and damage the windings TWO the branch circuit feed wires need protected from exceeding their ampacity so as not to degrade the insulation.

Nowwwww the motors thermal overload protection may be built in (like the lil red button that pops out on overload) orrrrr rr one utilizes a "Motor Starter" which has devices called heaters that sense overload conditions and open the relay controlling the motor.

Sooooo ooooo Im gonna assume the motor has a built in thermal protection device or you already have a starter and alllll l we gotta do is provide a branch circuit and protect the feeders buttttt ttt still allow the motor to start (draws like 6 x current momentarily while starting). without tripping a circuit breaker if you feed it with such orrrrr rrrrr r if you feed it with a fuzed safety switch, get it fuzed to protect the feeders n still allow the motor to start.

CIRCUIT BREAKER Ok the NEC changes n Im rusty having been retired a longgggg gg time n Im too lazy to look it up lol but heres how we used to do it..... If the motors full load current is NO MORE THEN say 24 amps, thats 80% of a 30 amp circuit breaker and theoretically you could use a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire BUTTTTT TTT unless that 30 amp breaker is one specifically designed for motor starting, a 30 amp MAY WELL NOT let her start buttttt ttttt a 40 amp breaker probably will. ALSO since the 10 gauge wire is sooooo oo close to the allowable limit and especially if its a long run, I believe as a matter of practice I would use 8 gauge feeder wires. Those wires and a 40 amp breaker should allow her to start,,,,, ,the feeders are protected,,,,, the motors thermal overload will protect the motor Yayyyyy yyyyy y

FUZED SAFETY SWITCH if you use a blade type Safety Switch to serve the motor, this is an easier call, you can use a 30 amp dual element time delay (motor starting) fuze cuz it willlll ll allow momentary overcurrent to allow the motor to start but then operate as a 30 amp protective device otherwise and assuming youre at 24 amps max current, youre within the 80 % of 30 amps. But again, if its a long run to reduce voltage drop, Id likely use 8 gauge wire.

Then there are the NEC motor rules about a disconenct having to be within sight and not more then 50 feet away subject to some exceptions like lockable safety switches buttttt ttt as a matter of good prctice and safety and for no more then they cost, I would use a blade type safety switch (it dont need to be a fuzed swith if the feeders are already protected back at the panel) near the motor with seal tight flexible (NEC reduces vibration transmission) conduit ran from it to the motor, NEMA 3R Enclosure if outdoors or NEMA 1 if indoors.

Hope this helps, stay safe, Best Wishes n God Bless

John T Longgggg retired n rusty Electrical Engineer

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buickanddeere

09-28-2006 15:06:29




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
There needs to be short circuit protection ( fuses or breakers) and overload protection ( thermnal trip). According to my code book a high efficiency 5HP draws 15.2Amp at full load on 230. I would assume the voltage to be lower and the current higher the longer away from the hydro service ransformer. Time delay fuses are to be 175%( 17.5Amp max)of the motor's FLA. Ordinary fast blow fuses 300%(45Amp)max and an ordinary breaker 250% (30Amp) max. The power cord has to be at least 12 gauge and the thermal overload set at 18.75 amp max.

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MarkB_MI

09-28-2006 17:37:27




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to buickanddeere, 09-28-2006 15:06:29  
B&D,

Were you maybe looking at the three-phase tables? Your numbers are about right for a 230V delta 3-phase motor. Otherwise, you must be looking at a REALLY high-efficiency motor, better than 100 percent!



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Bus Driver

09-28-2006 15:31:26




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to buickanddeere, 09-28-2006 15:06:29  
15.2 amperes x 230 volts =3496 watts. Divide that by 5 and the result is 699.2, less than the definition of watts per horsepower at 100% efficiency. 15.2 is not correct. The Article 430 of the Code is perhaps the most misunderstood of the entire code.



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buickanddeere

09-28-2006 18:43:52




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 Oh nuts.........Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to Bus Driver, 09-28-2006 15:31:26  
Well that was a stunned moment, I was suspicious to think that current seemed low but not on the ball enough to follow through. As you suspected I was looking at table 44 in the three phase 230V listing. Table 45 has the single phase motors. 28 amps is correct. So 35.0 amp comductor ( #6 SOW ). Overload protection from a 35 amp delay fuse max or 35.0 amp overload setting. Short circuit protection from either a 90amp non time delay fuse, 60amp time delay fuse or a 70amp breaker.

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MarkB_MI

09-28-2006 14:58:25




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
The first thing to understand is that the circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring, not so much the motor. You need to first determine the appropriate gauge of wire, then generally the circuit breaker is sized to the wire.

A five horsepower motor will pull around 24 amps at full rated load. (5 hp x 746 watts/hp = 3730 watts; figure .7 power factor: 3730/.7 = 5329 volt-amps; 5329 volt-amps/220 volts = 24 amps). You need to run 10 gauge wire minimum, with 8 gauge a better choice. Over 100 feet and I would probably go to 6 gauge. So either 6 or 8 gauge copper with a 40 amp breaker should be fine.

If you plan on running off a 60 amp breaker, then you must run at least 6 gauge copper wire to the motor.

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Bus Driver

09-28-2006 14:46:03




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to paul, 09-28-2006 14:16:40  
Sounds as if you have the motor already. The really correct answer to your question would be easier if you posted the rated voltage and FLA from the nameplate. But since we do not have that, Article 430.52 and 430.248 of the NEC leads us to the conclusion that a breaker up to 70 amperes could be used initially with the conductors being #8 copper. If that would not permit the motor to start satisfactorily, other larger breakers are permitted. My true 5 HP Air compressor works fine with a 30 amp breaker. Your motor might do so as well. Those who wish to differ with my post are requested to cite the applicable code provisions. This provision for the motor does not permit the oversizing of the main service breaker, assuming that your service is 60 amps.

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John T

09-28-2006 16:23:45




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 Re: 5hp breaker size in reply to Bus Driver, 09-28-2006 14:46:03  
Good and informative Post, Im tooooo o lazy to dust of my NEC as you requested and its likely changed anyway lol

However, I AGREE WITH YOU cuz as I recall (its been a while) the NEC does indeed allow a much larger sized circuit breaker to be used to allow the motor to start and evennnnn nn bigger then that normally used to protect the feeders ie. as you say even a 70 amp breaker with the smaller rated 8 gauge feeders is premissible. The theory why as I recall was that the Thermal Magnetic circuit breaker still protected against a fault (if theres a short that "thermal magnetic" breaker is gonna trip via its magnetic function portion) while the overload protection will protect the motor.

Love this electric sparky chat

Take care now

John T Longgggg gg retired EE

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