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Motor Capacitors

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JIMLLL

08-19-2006 15:12:40




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Please help me understand how capacitors work.
I read they will pass AC but block DC.
I understand the electrons coat the surface of one of the plates during one phase of the 60 cycle, but doesn't the dielectric (insulator) prevent them from flowing to the other plate? where do the electrons go when the voltage is reducing, as the phase comes to an end, it would be reasonable they would back flow as the voltage reduces.
Thanks for any help you can offer.

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Brimo

08-20-2006 17:35:24




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Here is an excellent explanation of Capacitance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance



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buickanddeere

08-20-2006 10:18:14




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Link



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Fred Martin

08-20-2006 06:16:02




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
After all the explanations that are probably clear as mud...there is another use for the lowly capacitor...when it is paralleled with an inductor...then it becomes a switch for letting some frequencies thru and blocking others....such as a trapped dipole antenna for ham radio....and of course resonant frequencies in the radio itself...(touched on by the EE"s) Didn"t know you opened up such a can of worms, did you? But the dumbest use for one is when some idiot charges one up and hands it to a friend so that he has to take hold of both terminals...and then they become ex-friends. Fred OH

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MarkB_MI

08-19-2006 19:53:30




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Although capacitors are very simple devices, explaining them can be complicated because they are used in so many different ways. To make matters worse, engineers use many different models to explain behavior, depending on the particular purpose the model will be used for. Some examples:

Energy: Capacitors are energy storage devices, similar to springs. Just as a compressed spring stores enery, a capacitor stores energy, but in the form of an electrostatic charge.

Steady state DC: Capacitors appear to be open circuits to DC.

Time domain DC: When you apply a voltage to a capacitor, it initially appears to be a short circuit, then becomes an open circuit over time.

AC: Current through a capacitor leads the voltage by 90 degrees.

I could cite a few more examples and give you formulas, but you get the idea. The simplest explanation is that they are energy storage devices, and whatever energy a capacitor stores must eventially be released.

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Jimlll

08-19-2006 19:33:10




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Utmost thanks to all of you. I'm now 68 yrs old and still don't know squat. My dad had a 3rd grade education and became a pipeline welder, radio and TV serviceman, refrigeration serviceman, made his own heliarc welder etc. I sure miss his explanations.
Thanks



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Ralph - Ohio

08-19-2006 19:11:11




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Somebody likened a capacitor in an electric circuit to a rubber diaphragm in a water pipe. If you put pressure on one side (DC)then release it the diaphragm stores water under pressure then pushes it back out. If you apply short pulses of water (AC) to one side, the pulses can be passed to the other side but no water actually passes through the diaphragm.



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KEB

08-19-2006 16:04:45




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
No, they are not poor quality batteries, although they do store energy in the form of an electrostatic field.

Here's what happens. If I apply a voltage across a capacitor, the voltage (electrical pressure) will push electrons onto one plate and pull them off the other, until enough charges have moved such that the electrostatic voltage between the plates is equal to the applied voltage. One plate now has a negative charge (extra electrons) and the other has a positive charge (missing electrons), and I have stored energy in the form of the electrostatic field between the plates.

Now, lets look at the case where I apply a DC voltage to a capacitor. When I first apply the voltage, such as closing a switch, there will be current flowing across the capacitor until the voltage between the capacitor plates reaches equilibrium with the applied voltage. Once the voltages reach equilibrium, the applied voltage cannot push any more electrons onto one plate or pull any more off the other, and current stops flowing. The number of electrons required to charge the capacitor to a particular voltage is a function of the value of the capacitor, measured in farads (or micro-farads), named after Michael Faraday who first described how a capacitor works.

This is why you can test a capacitor with an ohmmeter. An ohmmeter works by applying a known voltage (usually only a volt or two) across the resistance your're trying to measure, and measuring how much current flows. When you first connect the meter, the voltage applied to the capacitor is different than the voltage between the capacitor plates, and current flows and the capacitor shows a low resistance. As soon as the capacitor charges to the test voltage, current stops flowing and the meter reads a high resistance.

Now consider the case where I have a constantly changing voltage, such as the 120 volt AC in your house, applied across a capacitor. Because the applied voltage is constantly changing, electrons are constantly flowing onto and off of the plates trying to keep up. And yes, the direction of the charge changes 120 times per second.

Capacitors are used to induce a phase shift (change in time relationship between current and voltage) to create a rotating magneitc field in a motor. In a pure resistive load, the flow of electrons is directly proportional to the applied voltage. However, in a capacitor, the flow of electrons is constantly trying to keep up with the CHANGES in the voltage, which means that peak current flows at the point in time during the alternating cycle where the voltage is CHANGING the fastest, not where the voltage is highest.

In a simple example (and ignoring a bunch of other stuff for you purists) putting a capacitor in series with part of the winding in a motor causes the current through the winding to be shifted in time compared to the current through the remainder of the winding. By physically offsetting the second winding in the motor, I can create a rotating magnetic field.

Realize this is kind of long, but hope its understandable.

Keith
(practicing electrical engineer, 30+ years)

PS...a pure capacitor does not have resonance. Resonance occurs when a capacitance and inductance are paired, and the phase shift induced by the inductance exactly cancels the phase shift induced by the capacitor. Real capacitors may show a resonance at high frequencies due to stray inductance in their construction, but thats an undesireable effect that circut designers try to avoid.

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buickanddeere

08-19-2006 16:51:37




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 Bat Caps Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to KEB, 08-19-2006 16:04:45  
The US Armed Forces is replacing huge banks of lead acid or alkaline starting batteries with. Smaller, lighter, cheaper Bat Caps that don't leak and are not affected by temperature extremes.



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John T

08-19-2006 16:09:51




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to KEB, 08-19-2006 16:04:45  
Now theres a gooooo oooddddd dddd explanation. I practiced EE nearly 30 years but long retired, great to hear from a fellow EE whose more up on things

Take care n God Bless

John T



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Allan In NE

08-19-2006 15:54:03




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Jim,

Capacitors don't "pass" anything. Think of 'em as an electrical shock absorber with each side or "plate" filling and then discharging back out the same way the juice came in.

So, when they are hooked in an A/C circuit, by thier very "shock asorber" nature they will pass the "effect" of A/C without actually passing any current.

Allan



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John T

08-19-2006 16:05:59




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to Allan In NE, 08-19-2006 15:54:03  
Allan, as the AC frequency increases a capacitors impedance decreases and current actually does go right through (passes current) just like they werent there, sorta like water through a screen door in a submarine lol

A capacitors (still depends on its capacitance of course) hardly even noticeable at high frequency but youre right, at DC at which it will NOT pass current through after the charges have built up on the opposite plates. If you place an ohmmeter on the R x 10,000 scale across a discharged capacitor it will show low resistance and will conduct current until the charges are built up, but then the meter will swing/kick back towared infinity ohms i.e. an open circuit to the meters DC current.

Your "shock absorber" analogy isnt all that bad cuz a capacitor stores energy and opposes and resists changes in voltage across it i.e. it can be said to shock absorb I reckon cuz it will absorb or dump energy in an effort to maintain its voltage GOOD MECHANICAL ANALOGY

Hope this helps yall but it just cant be explained in a short paragraph what whole books are devoted to grrrrr r

Yall take care now n best wishes n God Bless

John T Long Retired Elecrical Engineer

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John T

08-19-2006 15:41:13




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Jim, Sooooo oo may questions sooooo o little time lol. Im not gonna even attempt to type here what it takes books n pages and entire EE courses to understand, so will just toss ut a few basics.

A capacitor is made up of two conductive plates that are seperated by an insulator dielectric. Its a totally passive energy storage device which opposes changes in voltage across it unlike an inductor which opposes changes in current through it. Following the initial current conductive charge up of + charges on one plate and - charges on the opposite plate IT BECOMES LIKE AN OPEN CIRCUIT AND DOESNT PASS MORE DC. However, it will allow AC current to flow through it due the the alternating charge up n discharge of opposite charges on the opposite plates and as the AC frequency increases the capacitors impedance decreases i.e. the higher the frequency the easier it is (less impedance) to pass current through it. I always got the L and C mixed up lol but I believe the formula for capacitave reactance is like 1 over j omeca C and for an inductor its j omega L. Impedance is sort of like frequency dependent resistance i.e. as the frequency increases the resistance to AC current flow decreases but as its lowered closer to DC, the resistance increases i.e. it blocks DC but passes AC.

Soooo whay are they used on split phase motors????? Its to increase starting torque over non capacitor split phase motors. They are used to change the phase angle of the current in the start winding (current leads the voltage in a capacitor) which sort of fools the start winding in to where its physically located which is similar to giving it more of an angle/leverage relative to the run winding SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AGAIN, I CANT EXPLAIN AN ENTIRE EE COURSE IN A PARAGRAPH AND AM OVERSIMPLIFYING TO HELP A LAY PERSON UNDERSTAND THE BASICS.

It increases starting torque and is a passive energy storage device which opposes voltage changes across it and its Impedance increases as frequency decreases.

If you need more check out a book and delve into it more I reckon I gotta go eat supper so hope this helps some at least

John T Long retired EE

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old

08-19-2006 15:37:49




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
On a motor they sort of boast the power to get the motor started. Most motors with them have to start a load like on a compressor. So they satore some valtage and boost it to help get the motor spinning



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GOOD JOB...John,PA

08-21-2006 03:55:40




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to old, 08-19-2006 15:37:49  
The new run capacitors, the cheap imported ones, are NO GOOD. I almost lost $$$$$$ worth of peaches in a cold storage recently due to the loss of run caps. on new condenser fan motors that I recently installed. Lightning blew out the caps. Never had the problem with the older Mallory(tm) type.

Becareful with the new ones. I keep an inventory of the old brands. Stay away from the run caps. known as "PACKARD".

Thanks. John,PA

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John T

08-19-2006 15:54:26




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to old, 08-19-2006 15:37:49  
Hey Old you behaving yourslef you rascal????? ? Anywho the capacitors increase starting torque cuz the initial current through them leads the lagging voltage and with that change in the phase angle through the start winding versus the run winding, it increases the starting kick over a regular split phase motor where the phase angle in the start n run windings would be closer to the same, cuz theres no capacitor to change the relative phase angles.

Sooooo ooooo , Its not so much it stores any voltage to increase starting torque, its cuz it changes the starting currents phase angle

Clear as mud huh lol

Yall take care n God Bless

I enjoy your website old

John T

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old

08-19-2006 17:17:30




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to John T, 08-19-2006 15:54:26  
Shoot thats expalin is way to hard for the average joe to understand LOL. I sort of understand but I was once and E.T. in the navy. By the way if you like the web site make my wife happy and add something to the guest book please. Shes been complaining to me that know one is saying any thing in the guest page. Thanks
As far as the motor thing thats why I said it gave a boost. LOl

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John T

08-19-2006 17:42:27




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to old, 08-19-2006 17:17:30  
Next time I will do just that, we goota keep the women folk happy so we can spend out time n money at tractor shows lol Hey we do agree, the capacitor does indeed give the motor a "boost" regardless how we explain it.

Take care

John T



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Whoa Lee

08-19-2006 15:18:56




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 Re: Motor Capacitors in reply to JIMLLL, 08-19-2006 15:12:40  
Think of them as poor quality batteries.

That's about all they do is suck up small amounts (or large, if big enough) and release it over and over.

They can be built to resonate, or work best at different specific frequencies.

And can have specific preset amounts of storage. mfd's

and most will have a maximum working voltage attached to them also.



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