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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220.

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BigMarv1085

08-02-2006 12:08:01




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My electric bill has always been on the high side. I replaced the A/C unit last year and the price has come down comparing this years cooling bill to last years. My bored well pump is around 20 - 25 years old ( 110 volt & 50 feet deep) and I was thinking about replacing it, and the copper tubing under the house with pvc. What would you suggest going back with, a 110 or 220 volt pump and a bigger tank? What would be the most energy efficent?

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workhorse

08-05-2006 05:45:53




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
The most efficent way would be to change your 220v pump to mono drive. Your large pressure tank would be gone, your pressure switch would be replaced with a pressure sensor. The pump would be variable speed, and soft start and the water pressure would be constant. set the system on 50lb and the pump runs slow or fast depinding on the amount of water being used.



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buickanddeere

08-05-2006 07:35:33




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to workhorse, 08-05-2006 05:45:53  
Mono drive works fine on a system where there is a constant but varying flow.Eg. several residences/businesses on the same well. Or a large livestock operation. Otherwise go with cycling and a bladder tank. Other wise get a huge air bladder tank, use large dia pipework and use only ball or gate valves. The line from the well, check valve, tank and up to the cold/hot split should be 1,1-1/4 or 1-1/2. No less than 3/4 into/out of the hot water
tank. Hot and cold mains should be at least 3/4 and 1/2 only going to each individual load. Connecting the pressure switch through a magnetic starter prevents the pressure switch contacts from burning up or welding closed.

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bcPA

08-05-2006 03:29:39




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
I read on internet that you want at least a 2 minuite pump time when your pressuse gauge turns the pump on. That amount of time is from memory. If your tank is too small or you loose the air space in the top of the tank or pressure in the bladder your run time will get smaller. I like everything the other guys said. I was surprized though by the price per month estimated to run the pump, I thought it was quite low but I admit I am not qualified todiscuss this item with any authority.

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Bus Driver

08-02-2006 16:46:42




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
With either voltage, the wattage for a given HP pump will be the same. But the 240 volts will have a voltage drop due to conductor resistance of half the number of volts that the drop would be at 120 volts- because the amperage at 240 is 1/2 of the amperage at 120. But the voltage drop (as a percentage of the circuit voltage) using 240 is just 25% of the drop as at 120 volts. Longer runs really benefit from the 240.

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Dusty MI

08-02-2006 16:37:29




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
750 watts per horse power no matter volts. You pay for electricty by the watt/kilo watt. The higher the voltage the smaller the wire size needed, still the same number of watts. The higher voltage MIGHT be more efficent. Three phase is simpler.

Dusty



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David - OR

08-02-2006 15:51:35




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
Sure, 220 is better than 110 for running a pump,
but do the math before you spend money on anything.

If you don't have a swimming pool and are not watering a huge yard, a family of 4 can be expected to use about 12000 gallons of water per month.

If we assume a static water level of 50 feet (it is probably less), and an average household water pressure of 50 PSI, then we are looking at a head perssure of 175 feet of water. Pumping 10 gallons per minute against a head of 175 feet takes only 1/3 horsepower.

Let us assume a combined pump/motor efficiency of 50 percent. We know 1 HP equals 750 watts, so 1/3 horsepower equals 250 watts at 100% efficiency or 500 watts at 50% efficiency.

You need 1200 minutes of pump run time to supply 12000 gallons, or 20 hours per month. Your total pumping cost per month is 20 * 0.5 or 10 Kilowatt hours per month. Assume fairly high electric rates of 12 cens per kilowatt hour and it is costing you about $1.20 per month to pump water for your household.

Assume some combination of changes could improve the total efficiency to 75% from 50% (unlikely, but a good upper bound). This would result in a monthly savings of 1/3 of your current water pumping cost, or about 40 cents per month.

A new pump, pressure tank, and pump controller would cost you in the neighborhood of $1000 (depends on how much work you do yourself). Assume a 20 year service life and a cost of capital of 6 percent per year, you are looking at around $10 per month to amortize the new equipment. (If you move before 20 years, the cost will be higher).

So in your zeal to reduce electric costs, it looks to me like you would be spending $10 per month to save 40 cents per month. I don't see that this pencils out, not even close.

For this to make sense, you need some other reason to make changes, a reason like the existing equipment is old, or you draw an extreme amount of water per month, or the plumbing was done badly, or putting in pumps and wiring and plumbing is some sort of hobby for you.

Future energy costs will doubtless be higher than they are today, but they would have to hit really extreme levels to justify changes for the sake of "saving money".

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buickanddeere

08-02-2006 16:41:14




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to David - OR, 08-02-2006 15:51:35  
Correct as is Fawteen & Ol John T.



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El Toro

08-02-2006 14:39:29




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
Your amperage draw would be cut in half by using 220. Should be a little cheaper to operate. Hal



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ShepFL

08-02-2006 14:24:41




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
For a houshold well I would stick with 220. For a shallow well i.e. lawn sprinkler consider 110 (popular down here in the Deep South).

My experience is that a similar HP motor is more efficient in 220 than a 110 motor.

I am running a 4" well, submersible, 420' deep. A bit overkill for FL but I am down in the aquafer and never need to worry of sand cave in, well running dry etc. and I have enough H2O to run the house, critters and misc.

Reading others posting I see I need a bigger bladder to reduce cycle times & save $$ as others have mentioned - great idea!

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old

08-02-2006 13:55:48




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
I'll add to what others have missed. A 220 volt pump will most likely have a loager GPM so with the bigger tank it still may not run much if any more then the pump you have now which will save you more $$ also. Just plain an all around better set up going with 220 over 110



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John T

08-02-2006 13:52:53




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
Marv, Im for using 220 since theres less I squared R energy heat losses in the conductors at only half the amperage. I would also go the bigger tank route to reduce start up cycling time which is a big energy user. It momentarily takes something like 6 times the current to start a motor then it does to run it.

John T



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Fawteen

08-02-2006 12:37:44




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
Typically, a 220 motor will be more efficient than a 110 motor in the same HP range.

Is this a jet pump or a submersible?



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Charles (in GA)

08-02-2006 12:37:06




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
Indeed the bigger tank would be real good. Reducing the cycles on the pump is a good thing. Also a big bladder tank will give you more reserve during a power outage for simple things such as flushing the commode or washing your hands. Think 40 or 50 gallons.

I cannot imagine running a well pump on 120v. If you install a 240v pump, you can use the same wires, remark the white to red, and you won't need a netural, so long as you have a bare or green ground. 240 will use half the amperage of a comparable 120v unit so you will get less current loss in the wire = more effiency.

Charles

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IH2444

08-02-2006 12:24:09




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 12:08:01  
I guess a bigger tank would be more efficient. the pump would run longer to fill it , but would have less starts and would use less wattage overall because of that.
As to the efficiency of the pump motor and pump. Your guess is as good as mine on that. I believe less improvements have been made on electric motor efficiency than has been made in AC units.



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BigMarv1085

08-02-2006 16:43:15




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to IH2444, 08-02-2006 12:24:09  
I appreciate all of the comments. It looks like the way to go is with a 220 and a bigger bladder tank. Like I stated earlier, my well pump is a jet 1/2 h.p., 1 1/2 gallon bladder, 110 volt that is 22 years old and the only thing ever done has been the pressure regulator I replaced last year. What would be the best pump, a sta rite?



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T_Bone

08-02-2006 22:23:30




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 Re: O/T Well pump replacement or 110/220. in reply to BigMarv1085, 08-02-2006 16:43:15  
Hi Marv,

About the only thing I can add is your bladder tank is very small. The larger the tank the less your pump will run thus you save both pump and utility costs.

Although it not recomended I use the largest pressure tank I can get that's cost effective. I added a 80gal this summer that will draw down 32gal before the pump kicks on. If I remember correct the PT cost me $340 and the next size larger was $550 or so. The next size down was a 25gal DD for $290???. Approx numbers. So for me the 80gal was the best bang for the buck.

I'm also from the school that it's not cost effective to tear out something that still works unless a upgrade is a benefit.

Something to consider when the time comes to replace componets, is too add a 12v pump for when the grid goes down if that happens in your area very often.

T_Bone

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