Shop Buildings - need some advice

I have a friend who is also customer, that has established a shuttle service type business, transporting people to airports, business events, weddings, social affairs as well as people who cannot get around due to medical reasons. He runs some large vans, like the the dual wheel types, from 1 ton type platforms and up. One of the stringent D.O.T. requirments is that the vehicles get inspected every 3000 miles, as well as his regular maintenance program, he buy's new and late model equipment with low miles, and is really got this business growing, problem he sees coming up is that his current mechanic who runs a large shop next door, is not providing the services he needs lately falling behind and has problems with his employees. The work on the vans needs to be done right and on time, if not, his business will suffer, so I think he's intent on taking this work in-house ( I think it's a sound business move as well ) and really needs a shop with some administrative office space included, also be in the same location if at all possible and this is where I come into the picture, he needs a building.

Possibly 30 x 60 or bigger ( we know bigger is better, but there is a cost factor to keep in mind). He's a cost conscious guy when it comes to business, so I'm going to try and find the most cost effective building arrangement and know the building type is similar to what many people have built at home for shops and what have you.

What I would like to ask is, what manufacturers have people used here, what size buildings have people put up and what was the ballpark costs involved. I need to research the most cost effective manufactures, don't want junk, but need to ascertain what may be a suitable candidate for this client, will be insulated, heated, shop equipment like a lift will be required, high ceiling height, etc. etc. and may be a mixed use building, with some office space, size will depend on costs, he's aware of Morton type buildings etc. and he's a good friend, I've been a construction manager for many years and will represent his interest when this comes to fruition, so any insight on recent projects using steel type, pre-fab etc. type buildings is highly desirable. I probably could have kept this shorter, but I'm a bit detailed orientated, and like to be descriptive, thus the long windedness, but any advice on these kinds of buildings will be of great use, thanks in advance !!!

I've got an idea of what he does need, however I'll survey it in high detail and also include provisions for expansion, he will ultimately need to have a building that facilitizes his current needs and also address the needs of the future, something he may have to come to terms with when contemplating this scenario.

Problem he sees now is that the shop he uses ( right next door ) is not meeting his needs and he's seeing this early in the game, so it opens the door to look at the advantages of taking it in-house.

I'll give you an example, I took the job with the last company I worked for and they were just beginning to get into some large and complicated work, they needed someone with expertise like I had from start to finish on building projects, however I was no expert in the metal and glass trades, but certainly did know enough to pick up the ball and learn the rest, was not even intimidated by it to be honest, but it was a lot of work. The owners had made a business deal with an outside firm, that was really tightly connected internally with our company, we floated his payroll, bought his equipment, literally put him into business, for the purpose of doing all the erecting on our jobs. One of the first few big jobs were at Newark Airport, and a huge family courthouse in Queens. His performance was not agreeing with what the partners were looking for, they suffered through his performance at Newark, and the overall consensus at the Queens site was the same, except my recommendation was made to terminate his operation, make an immediate transition to in-house forces and take over the job ourselves, which was what I did, unfortunately it did not work out for him, he was technically challenged and was opening the door for a disaster on an agency job that could have just buried us in claims, I made that known, I've done more agency work than this guy has earned in a paycheck during his lifetime, not bragging, but I'm no ones fool when it comes to this business and we play hardball at all times, only way to succeed. I knew exactly what had to be done, it was my job to do so and the job still finished in the black. I now had total control to call the shots, adjust manpower, equipment, material, react and solve problems, instead of having to deal with another entity, then trying to motivate them to do what we did ourselves, no middle man needed, I think keeping things in house gives you a lot more control over the end results.

In retrospect, I agree my friend may be much better off getting set up in house, at least he can hire and fire, immediately address the needs of his business and get it done without having a 3rd party involved, where he's limited as to controlling the work he needs to have done on time, a functioning shop will do this, it has to be designed and coordinated specific to the needs, and I see some things mentioned here, we have discussed already, ceiling heights, dimensions for a vehicle lift, clearance for same and all the rest, this is all part of conceptual design and is good information.

Consider heating the shop at least with a used/waste oil heater system, he probably generates enough oil and tranny fluid to run it and might make a deal with individuals to take their fluid to supplant what he generates.

Put in a wash rack outside.

Also look at

Link

for more ideas. While alot of these guys have nothing more than a two car attached garage, there are some high rollers on here with some huge shops and don't mind showing them off. You will have to sign up to access the forums pics.

Charles

Why don't you design your own building? Then use your own labor to erect.

Actually, I would not be ashamed to post my resume or say curriculum vitae here, it's several pages, nor would I be intimidated by a $100 million dollar project if it were assigned to me, as long as the type of project was within my ability. No, I have not done nuclear, heavy industrial, manufacturing, pharmaceutical projects and know one person knows it all, it takes a diverse team to tackle the big jobs, but I am very confident in my abilities and my accomplishments to date. I have been involved in general contracting, with in house work forces, construction managment consultant to owner, have spent several years in the trades, and have a very good working knowlege of the industry as a whole, and have the qualifications to back it.

I have worked my way up from a truck driver when in college, delivering trusses, and lumber, heavy equipment operator in the sitework field to inspector, asst. super, super, general super, project manager, senior project manager, highest dollar project to date was $140 million, a super max. security correctional facility. 2 of the most complicated projects I've worked on and completed had over 800 contract drawings each, this does not include the thousands of shop drawings, catalog cuts, product data, approved, approved as noted submittals to be coordinated into the work along with these design drawings. I've got nothing to prove to anyone by bragging here or elsewhere for that matter, but I've got a well documented, diversified background that may challenge many in the same industry.

Most of my experience comes from complicated mid to high rise building projects, in NYC, one of the most difficult places to do construction work that I know of, as well as NYS agency work, and private development work, I'm no stranger to the business and have some very strong references to attest to that. I saw office mentioned in there, well I was project engineer on a $100 million correctional facility expansion program and handled a very important aspect of the project with a staff I trained, in a centralized office, I actually took my staff and spent a year in the agency's design & construction division, to expedite the submittal and approval process on this program which was mandated by an emergency order from the governor for corrections to deal with an overpopulation problem of the worst criminals in the system, 10 buildings at 10 different facilities, special housing units to keep em locked down 23 hours a day. Yes, I know the administrative, contractual, accounting and project control end of it as well if not better than any other professional in the industry, but I prefer to be hands on in the field, and I've made sure to get the experience I needed to be an effective professional across the board, that can deliver a project to an owner using the best and proven practices available to our industry today.

I see a lot of really bad situations in the smaller residential, light commercial part of the industry locally, people get roped in with bad contractors, bad situtions etc. etc. having no experience in any area of construction, contracting, and many get taken for a ride or suffer long drawn out projects with adversarial relationships, claims, disputes, ending up in litigation etc., not knowing how to pre-qualify a contractor for a job, make a character assessment of a contractor or their people, and enforce the contract documents, including schedule and budget. This is what a construction professional does, and I'm blessed due to the fact that I don't believe there is not much I am not capable of in this industry, within the realm of my direct experience. I am capable, I can be intimidating to some, but I get the job done and done right, I don't tolerate lousy contractors and have defaulted several in my career, which is not a pleasant experience and something you want to avoid, however if you impede the progress, or perform substandard work to a point where there is no other option, your bonding company will be brought in asap. In the end they all get done, some on time and under budget and others can be complete disasters, I've been on jobs as a sub where they were complete disasters, it's not fun and the owner pays the price, some agency work, not all, can become real nightmares.

Over the years you further your abilities, I'm the same guy who can set foot on a job with his tools, operate equipment, etc. and take orders from a foreman, or be a super, project manager etc. I am very fortunate to have attained the ability I have, and always look forward to the learning experience of a new project, using what I know from past projects. If you total the dollar amounts of the sites I have worked on as a contractor or construction manager, you are talking close to a billion in value, 1/2 of that was agency work, start to finish, part private developer work, and the remainder is specialty contractor work, like curtain wall on high rise buildings where the overall project value was 50 to 100 million. I've supervised crews of 50+ Ironworkers and have dealt with union work forces responsible for payrolls of up to $150,000/week ,if that gives you any idea of the scope of some of my experience. I've utilized and coordinated placing 30 to 300 ton hydraulic cranes on the street in NYC, mostly in Manhattan, and have supervised very delicate operations, to erect our work in some extremely tight and difficult situations, you cannot believe what a hassle it can be to just get the permits to place a crane on the street, let alone get the crane set up and actually do the work. The last company I worked for, it was a big responsibility that placed a lot of stress on me, there is a lot of heat on you during these operations. I also don't know too many project managers that know crane signals and can direct an operator, be it blind picks on the opposite side of a building many stories up using a radio, or straight up hand signals from the deck in plain view of the operator, I'm one who can and that is not all I'm capable of. I have a distinct ability to lead, and have been put in positions where jobs were at standstill, in the red, way behind in schedule, and have revovered lost profits. I get the respect of my crews when doing contract work, I have an ability and or a gift to lead, I always treated my people well and with mutual respect, I weed out the bad ones quickly, and take care of the rest. My production rates have made companies a lot of money, here is an example, a change order to a contract which required a 30 ton crane, 2 I.W. foreman 2 I.W. journeymen, 6 man glazier crew and glazier forman for just over 3 weeks on site, it netted the company just over $300,00 profit, at the end of 4 weeks, all of it due to the plans and instructions I devised for my foreman to execute and follow.

I like to help others when it comes to this business, be it a friend, someone who needs help or a representing a client on a fee basis, this is what I do and have dedicated my lifes work to.

Funny you mention a pole building, I'm doing a small one right here at home right now, 20'-0" wide by 32'-0" long, now you want to get articulate, here goes, the power company currently has a subcontractor on the easement running through our property, I've secured use of a late model Cat 420 backhoe, after hours and have a small stockpile of old materials needing to be used up, also have made use of the left over 5000 psi concrete being used on the job, and have secured unused trusses for my roof, all of this is practically free, yes I fuel the hoe up but that's about it, besides fasteners and hdwe. which I have quite a bit of, I've had a door opened to execute a project right here at home of my own design. I'm a resourceful type, if I see materials that can be re-used from a dilapidated building or leftover from a job site and can realize a cost savings, or use the material, I'll do it, especially for a home project, there is a ton of waste in the industry and the country alone, I see it all the time and being an opportunist, keeping a look out does pay off sometimes.

Self design, well in NY I think it's best to have design documents done by a professional, stamped by a licensed professional engineer or registered arhcitect certified by the state education dept. An agricultural building is one thing, but something like this,( client work ) a manufucturer will have in-house capability and provide this. This does not mean that when I run into field conditions that change the design, I won't neatly sketch and propose a solution for an engineer to calculate and verifty to work, stamping and approving same, I've done that for years, but I am not a design entity, although I am very proficient with the contract documents, interpretation of same, and have good ability to find problem areas, most do not reveal themselves until actual construction takes place, but I can spot a poorly detailed set of documents and plaster the designer with R.F.I's until I have the answers I need, these are what kills a construction schedule, they cause delays that can cost a lot of money if not handled properly. ( R.F.I. - request for information ) This is what a project team does, deals with all the issues, from RFI's , change orders, time and material work, addendums, clarifications, submittals, updating the construction documents and getting the information out, coordinating the work, especially the mechanical trades and so on, it's a big responsibility to stay on top of everything, no construction professional has time to waste on a job site, especially when short on staff, hell I did an 8 story building on W22nd st. by myself, no super, I was both P.M. and super, had to train a girl who was an achitectural student to handle some of the admin tasks while I deal with contractors, this small job was no easy task, and not one I'd ever do again under the same pretenses, but I handed the owner a certificate of occupancy, which is the goal line, overall value was $10 million.

The type of building the client here is considering is not my specialty, meaning I'm not familiar with them as an expert, but by no means would that prohibit me from being a GC on the job or a C.M. to an owner for this kind of a building, who is too busy or not knowledgeable enough to deal with it. Either I get a set of plans and specs for a building from a MFR., that meets/exceeds an owners needs which I participate in determining, or a conventional design from a design firm for a building, the process of conceptual design, pre-construction, writing scopes of work, preparing bid packages, awarding bids, construction and project close out will be similar, depends on how you set it up. I for one can value engineer the project and set it up to maximize savings where possible.

Ex. I will do the site work myself, I have a good reputation with a Cat rental outfit and can get the equipment I need on site very easily, as well as having the abiltity to do layout and prepare the site per the drawings, for a concrete contractor to come in and do the work after, preparing the site to his needs to do the concrete work. I get paid, but I don't charge what an excavation contractor would get for the same job as a whole, I enjoy the work actually, and most times the owner just pays for my time in the seat at my specified rate, fuel, equipment rental, and raw materials, no mark up, just cost. It's an incentive to an owner, and works to a certain size job, if I feel I can do more in the same manner I'll do it, if I need to bring in some in house workforces, I'll determine whether it's feasible or not, if not I broker it out and use the best qualified sub and negotiate a contract that suits the job and the owner. No contractor will provide this savings so when possible, I can do it, If I am comfortable providing a lump sum for work I can do in-house I'll do it, if not, better to sub out to a reputable contractor and monitor his work closely on site. If it's a huge job, no I won't even go there, with anything in house, I'm not a G.C., it's not my scope of work to be a G.C. but if it's within what I feel comfortable doing, be it site work or erecting, it's not a problem. I have a company that I work under, in my name, depending on the circumstances and insurances, payroll etc. it's a judgment call, I try to concentrate on the const. management aspect of the job first, it's the most important part of the job. I did a parking area for this client last year under these pretenses, brought in equipment and did the job myself, was a real bad site with lots of water present and it worked out great, I got it done quickly, he needed the the additional space in a hurry.

I dunno, I don't mind being challenged one bit, and these are good questions that you ask, as I said many people claim to be qualified in the industry and are not, so do you think I've got the qualifications Dave, or what ? LOL ....

Seriously, lately I'm determined to take the big building experience I have and apply it to, localized work, smaller jobs, customizing the practices to jobs/owners that can benefit from a construction manager, helping owners avoid the potential nightmare. The commute to NYC everyweek kept me away from the things I enjoy too much as well, so I've taken a hiatus from it, I see a market for my skills here and I've got some potential jobs to look at, it's a start !

This is the longest darn post I've ever written here, by no means did I have any intention to pontificate here, hope this is not offensive to anyone, just a little compassionate about my work and do get carried away, and highy appreciate all the suggestions, I've got some research to do !

Charles

I've always wanted to do a block building with the old style industrial type windows, garage doors, nice I-beam across, powered trolley type hoist chain fall and all the rest, like our old ford tractor dealership building, it was a huge steel and block building, had all kinds of equipment, a loading dock, you name it, compressed air piped all over, parts dept. work benches, shelving, was the biggest ford dealer in the area, kind of a shame what happened there, talk about a shop though, that was a shop all right, cost a fortune to build today. There is a picture of it in the town history book with a whole bunch of brand new 8N's out front, maybe I'll scan and post it, might be clear enough to see.

For service work with lifts, clear span trusses are a must. Most post frame buildings use standard trusses and you lose a lot of overhead. All-steel buildings almost always have clear spans, and there are some "hybrid" buldings that use post frames with steel roof trusses.

There are a number a regional building manufacturers who make buildings superior (IMO) to the more well-known companies like Morton. I'm not familiar with who is in NY state, but I suggest you look around for buildings that you like, then ask the owner's who built it.

Pre-engineered steel buildings are constructed on bays of 20', 25', and 30' commonly. The endwalls are expandable or non expandable if future expansion is not required. Steel siding and roofing is typically 26 gauge. Roof slope is 1:12 (best $) to 4:12. Insulation is placed over the roof purlins or wall girts at time of installation with various other accessory insulation systems available. Reputable companies include Butler, Ceco, American, Varco Pruden, Metallic. Compare apples to apples with loading - be sure to ask what is the actual loading on the roof not the ground snow loading with a reduction factor (often stated this way).

Pole barns are conventionally built on 8' centers. Insulated over wall girts / roof purlins (change to 26 gauge to prevent dimpling) and under sheeting. Morton and Lester Building Systems (and others) use a 10' bay. Roof trusses dictate a 4:12 slope to be the best price. Usually 29 gauge steel.

Conventional framing is also done anchor boltsed to either the concrete floor or block wall.

If a floating slab is acceptable (codes and site drainage controlled), floating slabs are acceptable for the conventional and steel buildings. I prefer not to use them in the North where frost is prevelant.

The best interior finish is either the insulation facing (WMP-10) or painted steel liner panel. Check out Guardian insulation for pricing. Therm-all is alos a brand and the metal building suppliers also often quote packages although I have not found them to be competitive.

Please ask questions if you think I can help. I read this website daily and appreciate the chance to possibly help you guys that provise so much knowledge.

Bill

PS, I do the same thing, it's fun to give back to the forum community here when you have some knowledge on something, I can't express enough thanks to people who have done the same for me, I may be a bit long winded, but I like details and try to illustrate a clear picture as best I can when I do respond, good thing I can type reasonably quick LOL !!!!!

If the vans have a raised roof then you will need to have the lifts extended to 16ft. So that will make you end wall needs 16ft so you will clear the lift top.. I went with 12K lifts but would go with 15K the next time cuzz a 12 izz a beefed up 10K and a 15K izz a nutter animal all to its own. The lifts need to be 17 ft from the door min. I set mine at 19 and wish They were 17. On a standard car set up 15 would be bout rite but a little close if you got long pic�em up to werk on.If you plan to have electric door openers then either use the wall mounted opener or check to see how the opener will effect how far you kin raise the vehicle. I had planed to have;em on all my door�s but when they came to install�em they interfered with the 2 10K lifts 12ft doors so I only installed one at the 12K lift were you drive in the side of the build�in and no clearance problem and you kin raise enny think up and the opener nor the 16 Ft door interfere. I would shop around and talk to shop owners and try the vans on different lifts to find what werks. Vans are not to lift friendly and a PITA to set the lifts up fer�em so look around for the type that werks best. I used Worth lifts and iffin they would stand behind what they sell and make a few changes then they would be great. The problems I had with�em were not able to be werked out cuzz they don�t care once they got yer money.
Stay away from�em, git a Rotary or a compatible lift. 30 ft izz gonna cut it to close for a extended van think 40 ft you will not regret it. Also I will never build again unless I over hang the roof 5 Ft all the way around. The front apron needs to be no less then 10 ft if you plan to de enny kind of werk out side. Face the doors to the east or south east and not to the west or north. Doors from the east will have shade out front after noon. To the west and south west it will be hot after noon. I would plan to have roll up doors in at least 2 walls so you kin git air threw the build�in. A big exhaust fan and plan on sum way to git the vehicle exhaust out of the shop. I made my on evacuation unit it werks but would go in ground on the next set up. The deal were you use a exhaust hose threw the door don�t hit on much. In the summer I try and do most of my werk at the east or north east side of the shop and in the winter werk on the south west end of the shop.

There are many reputable manufacturers of steel buildings, who custom cut and weld the "red iron" and provide complete ready to ere*ct packages. There are also many very reputable ere*ction companies who have been puting up buildings for years. Talk to some metal building manufacturers and see what they have to offer, and who sells and ere*cts their products.

I cannot recommend anything in the north east, as you can see, I'm in JawJa (thats Georgia to those of you unable to correctly pronounce JawJa)

If you are in the Southeast, I'd recommend such manufacturers as Bax-Steel of Baxley, GA, which is the Rolls-Royce of metal buildings..... ..... .

or

Note: take the underlines out of the address below, apparently the word s_i_t_e is on a blacklist as the YT site won't accept my post with the correct web address for that

Link of Eufaula, Alabama.

First you have to devolop a plan of what the man needs and could use in the way of shops and offices.

Charles

Yes I like Morton, I know they are a top shelf supplier, I have a few others to check, but the client expressed interest in Morton, so who knows, might be a fit.

I can do the site work, sub the concrete etc. no problem there.

At the residence in New Mexico (I'm in So. Korea right now) we put up a 25x25 building 12' tall with a 12 foot door. It's on a concrete slab and is big as I could put into the back yard. The independent contractor I used was licensed and insured and gave me a warranty with the work along with the manufacturer's warranty on the materials that were used. I don't know if they are anywhere near your location, but give Muellar Inc. a call and see what they can do for you. I'm sure that they know of several contractors that are reputable that could assist you. I have seen the Morton buildings, and think that the ones that Muellar has are just as good if not better. Most likely would be a lot cheaper also.

Jim