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Getting ready to plub shop w/air

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pbutler

06-28-2006 07:25:45




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Going to finally pull the trigger in the next couple weeks-tired of the hoses. Looking at 8 drops in a 60x80 shed. 2 on front and back wall and 4 along the back side. I have 2 questions:

1) Quite a bit of difference in price between 1/2" and 3/4"-does it really make that much of a difference? Main uses for me are running typically smaller air tools but occasionally I break out the 1/2" impact. Very little painting. Compressor is 80 gallon.

2) Where is a good place to buy the fittings to go from 3/4 or 1/2 to air fittings? I guess I can just use a couple adapters from Farm & Fleet but seems like someone would make something a little slicker.

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wgm

07-01-2006 18:33:47




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Apparently you guys recommending copper pipe haven't bought any lately. 3/4" L around $25 per 10'. M mid 30's. Use steel pipe only.
Only a fool would use plastic.



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Steve Crum

07-01-2006 06:11:12




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Interesting discussion, I'm currently piping the new plasma building for air. A 200' under ground 200 psi plastic 1" feed line from the main shop feeds to an 80 gallon Quincy QR-25 compressor in the compressor room of the plasma building. The feed from the main shop will be limited to 90 PSI and will be on a 'lag' basis. the QR-25 will be on the 'lead' basis and carry the load. All above ground piping is 3/4" black steel pipe w/200 PSI fittings with all valves, risers, drop legs, and mud legs in place. Just bought 2 Balston DX/BX filter combinations, especially for the plasma feeds and these are protected by a Wilkerson dessicant moisture stripper.
Just spent too many years in industry having to deal with poorly designed and cheaply installed pnumatic systems. I would have used copper, but they were picking me off the floor when they put prices on my materials list.

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RickL

06-29-2006 10:09:54




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I use 3/4 inch pipe in my shop all along one wall and ends 54x75. have eight outlets,shutoff and every one and drops at every one with shutoffs. two eight gallon tanks tyied together for volume and the petcock on bottom of air tanks removed and have fifty ft air line fasten their also with shut off thios bkleads the moisture in the tanks and alos get s used for our side shop use also.gets rid of moisture and is another usable outlet that way. runs every day since I aassemble machinery for dealers.

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Don L C

06-29-2006 07:54:43




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Why do you want to put in drips?

My shop is 36'x50'.....I ran 1/2" hard copper, I beleave it is M grade....get it at a plumbing supply.....I dont think Lowes or Home Dopt carries the heavy wall grade....
3/4" might be better, but I have had no problem with the 1/2"....

I ran my line around the shop about 4' off the floor....you can get the copper fastners....it looks good....put in a T where you think you will need one....dont go APE you can always add one where needed..... I even went through the outside walls, for outside air.....

I used brass pipe from the sompresser through a ball valve to the regulator...1/2" copper from there.....
Compressor set at 150#, THE LINE AT 100#....

Filter20 feet out to catch moisture

An additional filter/regulator can be installed in the line for painting.....
I leave my compressor on.....turn line off at the ball valve....
My system has been in now for 27 yr..... .

good luck Don

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neblinc

06-29-2006 05:54:24




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
There is some good info at TP Tools.
Link



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pbutler

06-29-2006 05:59:58




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to neblinc, 06-29-2006 05:54:24  
What good information I always get here, you guys are great.

Your shop looks like it is going to be really nice-that is what my gravel floor building aspires to be one day.

I did the electrical trenching and all like you did-wasn't that fun. :)

Here are some of my pics: (woefully our of date)



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paul

06-29-2006 00:08:16




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I was going to make a joke about PVC, but I see some here were serious about it, so I won't! Sounds like you are bright enough to use metal from the start. The PVC may react poorly over time to certain pump oils; and if it ever does break, it shatters itself into dangerous pieces powered by high air pressure. _Not_ a good idea. Keep hearing people try to get by cheap with it, but it will bite a few of them badly.

Good questions on the fittings, etc. I enjoy learning from the replies you got. As poor as some pipe is these days, hard to thread it together to hold air.

--->Paul

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Leland

06-28-2006 21:18:19




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
local hitch shop has all 1" pvc plastic pipe for air and he claims no problems and he said it 's cheaper than steel or copper .



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Richard Scott

06-28-2006 20:56:20




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Here's a piping diagram from Sharpe, who makes spray guns:>Link

FWIW,>Link I used 3/4" copper. Had a hose between the compressor & the pipe on the wall. Have several verticals with drain valves below each one. Almost all my water comes from the 60 gal. tank & the first drain. The second drain sometimes gives me a little vapor. I live in Oregon, not as humid as the plains states & east..

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IA Roy

06-28-2006 20:25:37




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Factory where I used to work had pvc airline explode, fortunately on Saturday when only a few working, no one too close. Shrapnel everywhere said the maintenance man who spent 64 and 65 in Viet Nam



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jones in texas

06-28-2006 19:27:21




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I was warned to not use pvc pipe because a sharp blow to the pipe under pressure can cause it to explode with pieces flying like shrapnel.



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Midwest redneck

06-28-2006 16:07:42




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Lots of good advice here, dont use PVC. I would use a 3/4 copper or black pipe for the main and 1/2" for the drops, use a drip leg with a drain valve on each drop and make the compressor have a easy open drain on the receiver tank. I would also get coil hoses for drops..buts thats just me.



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msb

06-28-2006 17:02:00




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Midwest redneck, 06-28-2006 16:07:42  
Listen to the redneck and slope(slightly) the line back towards the compressor so when the compressor shuts off, any moisture in the line will gravitate back to the tank and hopefully be caught there in a drip leg installed expressly for that purpose.



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CNKS

06-28-2006 17:09:58




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to msb, 06-28-2006 17:02:00  
I think you will find most diagrams showing the line sloping down and away from the tank. I drain the lines on startup by opening the drains at each drop, or sometimes leave them open and close after starting.



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oldfarmtractor

06-28-2006 14:28:08




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I am planning the same but I will be using 1/2" copper. The big thing is that it will be looped. That give you twice the volume of a single line.

Remember to tap off the top of the runs. I will be doing that with 2 street L's. Less soldering that way.

Should the low spot be at the beginning or the end of the run? If it is at the end, the water will flow the same way as the air and that might mean less mixing and turbulence. Just a thought.

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Charles (in GA)

06-28-2006 20:10:50




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to oldfarmtractor, 06-28-2006 14:28:08  
The interior cross sectional area of type L, 1/2" is .233 sq/in while Type L 3/4" has an interior cross sectional area of .484 sq/in slightly over double the 1/2" pipe.

The same holds true for Type M (thicker walled, either one is more than OK for shop air pressures) and 1/2" is .254 sq/in while 3/4" is .517 sq/in, again slightly more than double the interior area of the smaller pipe.

Thus, in theory, the 3/4 pipe would be the better choice than a 1/2 loop system.

The loop system is a good idea and you have to weigh the cost of the pipe and amounts used. Its possible that closing the loop may not use much more pipe and be the cost effective thing to do, as the interior areas are not that different.

Charles

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Charles (in GA)

07-02-2006 15:16:27




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Charles (in GA), 06-28-2006 20:10:50  
Oops, sorry..... .....

M is thinner walled, L is thicker walled, either one is more than strong enough for shop air if soldered with 95-5 solder. DO NOT use 50-50 solder! much weaker.

Charles



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720Deere

07-03-2006 11:43:45




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Charles (in GA), 07-02-2006 15:16:27  
Excellent point Charles! In all the research that I have done on copper for air piping, I have found that the solder joint is the week point of the system. As I recall, 95-5 joints will exceed the strength of the copper tubing.



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720Deere

06-29-2006 10:37:05




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Charles (in GA), 06-28-2006 20:10:50  
This is the second time in this thread that I have seen someone reference Type M as the heavy type of copper. The end area data that you posted yourself proves otherwise. The Type L has a lessor end are than the Type M. With the outside diameter being the same size, that tells me that the wall on the L is thicker.

Type K copper is the heaviest and is usually used for underground installation. Most household plumbing is type M as sold by Home Depot, Lowes, Menards and the like. Type K copper pipe 3/4" nominal weighs 0.641 lbs/ft and has a wall thickness of 0.065". Type M 3/4" weighs 0.455 lbs/ft and has a wall thickness of 0.045". This data comes from the Thomas Glover Pocket Reference which also states "Type M is typically used with interior heating and pressure line applications. Wall thickness is lightly less than types K and L."

Hopefully this helps to end the confusion.

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mjbrown

06-28-2006 10:57:47




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
A lot of good ideas here. I will add I did my shop at work with rigid copper. 3/4' lines 1/2" drops with the tees pointed up so water tends to stay in the main lines which slope to a long drop off the bottom with a drain valve to drain water. I got H&S sign off on the rigid copper before I started and have had no problems but copper is pricey now.



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CNKS

06-28-2006 09:59:39




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I did the same in a 30x60 shop, with 10 drops (overkill as so far I have only used 3 of them). 3/4 line, 1/2 drops. My understanding that the pressure drop in a 3/4 line is minimal, not nearly as much as in a 1/2. Depends on the size of your compressor. If I was to do it again, I would still use 3/4. Most of the fittings that fit into the 1/2 drops are actually 1/4 inch, but can use either 1/4 or 3/8 hose, if I remember right. I use both, 3/8 of course has less pressure drop. Purchased at a hardware store. For the 3/4 to 1/2 drops, just use a tee.

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J Schwiebert

06-28-2006 09:10:49




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Use the 3/4 inch for the main line and then 1/2 inch for drops. I would face the pipe Tees up for the drops and add a short (2") nipple and then bring the line across and then down. It helps to keep the moisture out of you air tools. Also as others have said add a short piece of pipe under the Tee on each drop and put a drain on each one.Thes pipes went about 10" below each of the connectors for the air hoses. We taught a couple of pneumatic classes one time for some of our plants and there was a guideline for the amount of fall to have in your main line in one of the text books we used. I don't remember what it was but maybe someone else remembers or will know.

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Ken Crisman

06-28-2006 08:43:53




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
Use only galvanized pipe & 3/4" for best volume . Also put some drains in the line at low points to remove water build up .Allow fall as the line goes along to keep water from returning to tank . Good luck & God bless . ken



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big jt

06-28-2006 08:32:14




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
I used 1/2 " line in my shop and seems to work ok. I do see some pressure drop but not much and all work good. Should add my comp shut's off at 175.

Unless you are in production and have people running multiple air tools at once you will be good.

Got my quick couplers either at the farm store or parts store. Buy a name brand (Milton). All the other plumbing bits I got at the local plumbing supply store. Every time there is a vertical run of pipe put in a drain with a short length of pipe to hold water.

If you use air stuff much put in a couple of hose reels. They are real handy. Usually need to add a valve as they tend to leak a little.

You will like it when you are done.

jt

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jmixigo

06-28-2006 07:44:41




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to pbutler, 06-28-2006 07:25:45  
In our shop-Commercial "big truck" repair- we ran one inch line to two 3/4 inch branches then tapped off with 1/2 inch drops. This runs one inch impact wrenches with no problems. I would 3/4 to the front and back then drop off with 1/2; just use common plumbing fittings and keep it neat.
My buddy at the transmission shop used CPVC on all his air lines and has had no problems for 12 years-at 175 psi- leaking air lines don't make a mess.

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Charles (in GA)

06-28-2006 16:53:50




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to jmixigo, 06-28-2006 07:44:41  
Your buddies shop is an accident looking for a place to happen, and if OSHA were to walk in, he WOULD get a citation and fines.

Charles



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Ozlander

06-28-2006 18:42:09




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Charles (in GA), 06-28-2006 16:53:50  
I used 1/2" cpvc 31 years ago, not one problem so far. What accident am I going to have?
Let me know so I"ll recognize it when it happens.



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NTP

06-29-2006 05:23:52




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Ozlander, 06-28-2006 18:42:09  
Take my word for it. YOU WILL know when it happens. Guaranteed. I just hope you are not in the building when it does explode.



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Charles (in GA)

06-28-2006 19:50:13




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Ozlander, 06-28-2006 18:42:09  
Do some searches on the Web. The failure of PVC and CPVC are widely known. The plastic shatters and shreads of PVC are scattered everywhere. People have been seriously injured. None of this kind of pipe is approved for use with compressed gasses including air, and OSHA has a letter out that the use of such in a OSHA regulated business is a clear violation of their rules. When a pipe full of liquid ruptures, there is little stored energy and you have a big leak and a bunch of pieces on the floor. When the same pipe carrying a compressed gas ruptures the stored energy is tremendous and pieces will be sent flying like glass, everywhere. Its been discussed on this forum in the past.

The only plastic pipes approved for compressed gasses are an ABS based pipe made by NIBCO called Chem-Aire and a Japanese made Poly Propolene pipe, I don't recall the manufacturer right now. These pipes do not shatter like Poly Vinyl Chloride based pipes do.

Charles

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Rod (NH)

06-28-2006 19:44:36




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Ozlander, 06-28-2006 18:42:09  
Charles is correct. Consider yourself fortunate. See here, here and here. Your risk, your decision to continue - unless you run a commmercial operation with employees - in which case such decision could be made by others.

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old art

06-28-2006 18:04:19




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to Charles (in GA), 06-28-2006 16:53:50  
put a hose at the tank for viberation also i used "T"s instead of couplings with a plug so if you want a drop some place you dont have to cut the pipe again, have a good day. art



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ldj

06-28-2006 19:52:46




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to old art , 06-28-2006 18:04:19  
WOW! I was getting paranoid about my pvc I put in for air 25 years ago. Then I read where others have had it a years. Is this danger anything anyone has actually witnessed or just heard about. Kinda like using butane/propane in your AC. I have never heard of anyone who witnessed or knew first or even second hand of an explosion. Also how about the 70's Chevrolet trucks having the fuel tank explode in an accident. Of the millions made and the hundreds you see in the wrecking yards, none are burned. ABC run a special on the dangers and it was later found out that in all their test they couldn't make it explode. They had to put incinerators to make it explode for their show. ABC got into trouble over that and very well should have.

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Charles (in GA)

06-28-2006 20:33:01




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 Re: Getting ready to plub shop w/air in reply to ldj, 06-28-2006 19:52:46  
Read these links from this board, previous posts. You will probably have to copy and paste these, as I don't know how to do the links in the text like Rod does.

Link

Link

Link

Link

http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=toolt&th=158538

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