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230 AC to 230DC

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BSer

06-01-2006 15:44:45




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I need to convert 230 AC to DC to operate a magnet.What is the best way to due this? About 3.5 kw?




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John T

06-01-2006 20:01:27




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to BSer, 06-01-2006 15:44:45  
BSer, it depends on the rectifier and if full or half wave and if a bridge etc but if you need 230 volts DC out you have to start with more then 230 VAC in !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! ! An electromagnet is more a current then any exact voltage device, the current is what does the work and produces the magnetic field.

John T



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souNdguy

06-03-2006 22:11:13




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to John T, 06-01-2006 20:01:27  
(it depends on the rectifier and if full or half (wave and if a bridge

A full wave and a bridge are the same setup... 4 diodes if using 2 lines.. 2 diodes if using a tapped xformer.

(but if you need 230 volts DC out you have to (start with more then 230 VAC (in !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !

The 230vac is RMS... he should be able to get that over to DC without much loss..

Remember.. rms is 70% of peak...peak is 50% of peak to peak... RMS measurement is used so that you can somapir working loads between ac and dc voltages...

If he gets rectifiers rated for the current.. he will be good to go... A big cap might help too.

Soundguy

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John T

06-04-2006 04:33:35




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to souNdguy, 06-03-2006 22:11:13  
Great info SoundGuy, I never have any exact specs or data handy but knew he would have some losses and have to start with more then 230 AC to get 230 DC but not sure how much exactly???

Isnt that called a "Wheatstone Bridge" when using 4 diodes wired in a diamond?? One can still use only one diode for a half wave or two for a full wave which IS NOT THE SAME AS 4 IN THE BRIDGE and again I dont have specs or data handy but sure the losses would vary to some degree depending on which rectifier setup he uses.

Love these sparky chats, if one has exact specs regarding losses for the one (half wave) or 2 (full wave) diode or full "Wheatstone" (which is also full wave) bridge it would be handy, but I would have to dig through alllll my old EE books which are awfulllll l dusty after all these years lol

Take care,

John T

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soundguy

06-04-2006 14:44:09




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to John T, 06-04-2006 04:33:35  
I'll keep my reply short. it's apparent you don't have a full grasp of the pertinant electrical theory here.

First.. a wheatstone bridge is used to measure resistance... not rectify voltage/current.

Also.. a 2 diode setup on a center tapped transformer will give you a rectified output.

4 diodes in the full wave bridge give you a rectified output..

A single rectifier will give you half wave rectification.

Mght be time to go dig out those dusty EE books!!

Here's a web reference to the wheatstone bridge

Soundguy

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John T

06-04-2006 16:28:59




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to soundguy, 06-04-2006 14:44:09  
For sure Sound Guy, Ive slept since I graduted in EE many moons agooooo oo, long since retired and enjoying it. Thanks for the correct "Wheatstone" terminology.

I will be brief also, dinner time and I dont think youre on the same page regarding my original remark he needs more then 230 volts AC in to get 230 volts DC out (BUT subject to the rectifier configuration, of course)

You are correct and I agree: (It must be right then lol) 1 diode gives half wave, two can give full wave, and the 4 (NOT Wheatstone but a different name??) in a bridge also gives full wave... WE AGREE ON THAT ONE looks like you got it.

Your grasp isnt perfect but its not too darn bad for sure since you remembered the term "Wheatstone" better then myself. Grrrrr r told ya its been a while

Okay heres an explanation to help you:

Diodes you see are passive devices in which THERE ARE LOSSES so that any energy out isnt gonna be as much as in, SUBJECT TO (as far as "voltage" in the rectification process is concerned) the fact that the AC is RMS as you correctly pointed out while the DC is peak to peak, so one has to have the specs n data to see how each would perform when configured as one (half wave) or two (full wave) or the 4 in the bridge (NOT Wheatstone)

IE how many volts in AC versus how many volts out DC for all the number and configurations of rectifiers (1 diode half wave, 2 diodes full wave, 4 diode bridge bridge) is the unknown here and I still claim and stand by that he still needs more then 230 AC in to get 230 DC out

If you can, please look up the specs for the voltages in and out for all those rectifier configurations it would be great and help us all out, dust the old books off if you have to mine are covered tooooo oo deep lol

Hope this helps you, fun discussion, take care now. PS What is the correct generic or technical term for the bridge configuration Im thinking of???

John T

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souNdguy

06-05-2006 04:52:54




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to John T, 06-04-2006 16:28:59  
( he needs more then 230 volts AC in to get 230 (volts DC out (BUT subject to the rectifier (configuration, of course)

Yep..kinda.. and it will depend on the specific diodes he uses to determine the precise difference.. they have different forward voltage drop characteristics, depending on the junction type.

(Your grasp isnt perfect but its not too darn (bad for sure since you remembered the (term "Wheatstone" better then myself. Grrrrr r (told ya its been a while

It's only been 18 years since I starterd taking some of those EE classes.. so it may be just a tad fresher in my mind.

(and I still claim and stand by that he still (needs more then 230 AC in to get 230 DC out

He's going to be close, no matter what rectifiers he uses..The reason being, is that the 230v we refer to is just 70% of the half wave potential of the ac wave form. That is.. If you looked at the full wave form, peak to peak on an o-scope.. you would have a signal that might be say.. 650v peak to peak. Drop that down to 325v for a peak reading. It is still common among the electrical wireing people to carry 'peak reading' volt meters, instead of the RMS reading volt meters that are commonly sold to 98% of the population. In any case.. that 325v is the peak voltage.. that is.. it is the maximum potential difference from ground reference to the top of the wave form. Now.. to compair the amount of 'work' completed between AC and steady state DC voltage, there is another measurement point.. and that is the root mean square.. or RMS voltage. That 325 volts becomes 230v when you calibrate for RMS.. that is about roughly 70% of the peak voltage reading That's why it is not going to be too hard to get a high DC rectified voltage out of 230vAC rms.. cause he has a 650v Peak to Peak signal to work with...

All that said.. there will be some forward votlage drops at the rectifiers, as well as some ripple on that unfiltered DC. You would want to filter it with a big cap, and perhaps stabilize it with an inductor ( the electro magnet will be a huge inductor ) if you wanted to pin down an exact dc voltage reading.

(while the DC is peak to peak)

The ac full wave form from peak to trough to negative peak will be peak to peak.. the DC will be steady state, either positive or negative, referencing ground... but I think that was a typo anyway.. I thik we both agree on that and the other points.. said differently or not..

(What is the correct generic or technical term (for the bridge configuration Im thinking of)

If you are refering to the 4 diodes in a diamond pattern, then it is a 'full wave bridge'.. Common lingo would be to call it a 'bridge rectifier', if you were refering to a single device that was say..pre-assembled and potted in epoxy on a heat sink , and ready to use.. like at radio shack.. etc.. vs assembline our own out of 4 individual diodes.

Soundguy

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tech4

06-01-2006 19:39:30




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to BSer, 06-01-2006 15:44:45  
The link below shows some commericial rectifiers for 230 volt single phase. The 70 amp diodes would be ok for 3.5 KW. You could build the same assembly a little cheaper if you worked with electrical equipment. These assemblies use SCR's as rectifiers allowing you to control the current to the magnet with a small control voltage. Are you planning to use this on a boom to pick up scrap metal?

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buickanddeere

06-01-2006 18:52:48




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to BSer, 06-01-2006 15:44:45  
What voltage is required on the magnet? A plain simple bridge rectifier on a heat sink will do fine. A diode will be required to absorb voltage spikes when the magnet is denergized.



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kraigWY

06-01-2006 16:55:07




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to BSer, 06-01-2006 15:44:45  
You can put a big diode on your welding leads but you will only have 115 DC



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Pooh Bear

06-01-2006 18:24:31




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 Re: 230 AC to 230DC in reply to kraigWY, 06-01-2006 16:55:07  
You put a step up transformer on a 110 circuit
to get the current up to 220 then add a rectifier
bridge after the transformer to get 220v DC.

Gonna cost you to get parts rated for this.

Pooh Bear



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