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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Electrical plug on arc welder

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Quebec Bob

06-01-2006 04:50:07




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Well I managed to put the extension cord on my second-hand arc welder (I thought it was an old Lincoln but it turns out to be a Liquid Carbolic). I removed the old 5' plug cord from the welder and ran a new 15' extension from the welder to a new plastic high moisture junction box. From the junction box to the outlet (inside the tack room where I had put in an outlet for my air compressor) I ran the original 5' plug that I had removed from the welder. Now here is the problem: Lo and behold when I went to plug the welder in, the two lower male leads on the plug run horizontally. On my compressor (and thus on the outlet) the two lower male leads run vertically. I managed to laugh about it. It never occurred to me to check beforehand. Now I have to buy a new plug with the leads running horizontally. My concern is that I might cross the wires when I connect the new plug. I presume the big round male lead is the ground (green). How can I tell which of the other two is white and which is black. If you tell me to look in the box to tell the difference, can you tell me exactly what to look for? As you can tell I am no electrician. Your assistance appreciated.

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Slowpoke

06-02-2006 00:16:28




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
It seems from your explanation that the welder is permanently attached to the "high moisture junction box". Wondering if permanency is a good idea and how you got from there to the interior of the building?

Anytime you have a question about use of plugs and recepticals go to Google and type "NEMA Plug Configuration". As said earlier, most devices are marked with the NEMA code, so you don't have to guess, just consult the chart.

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dr.sportster

06-01-2006 14:54:16




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
On some of them[male side] you can disassemble and turn the prongs 90 degrees for the other configuration.



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John T

06-01-2006 11:49:21




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
Bob, first of all, as far as the two hot phase wires, L1 and L2 on a 120/240 Volt Single Phase 3 Wire typical Residential Service IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE which phase wire connects to which phase (NOT ground) plug terminal, its 240 volts AC between the two and assuming the welder uses ONLY 240 volt, it requires no Neutral (grounded conductor), just the two hot L1 and L2 phase wires plus the equipment safety ground. The 2 similar plug legs would be the two phase wires while the stand alone or circular type would be for the equipment safety ground (often green or bare).

CAUTUION NOTE: You have to use a plug,,,,and a receptacle,,,,, and branch circuit feed wires,,,,, ,,,, and a circuit breaker rated to handle what the welder requires!!!!! !! Some AC Buzz Box welders similar to what you describe require 50 amp service n receptacles n wiring and branch circuit breakers while smaller welders may only require 30 amp service WHAT DOES YOUR WELDER REQUIRE ????? ????? ????? ??? Once you know that all you have to do is insure that alllll lllll the branch circuit components being the plug,,,,the receptacle,,,,, ,the branch circuit wire sizes,,,,, ,,and the circuit breaker are suitable for the welder, be it 30 amp or more likely 50 amp service.

Once I know what the welder requires, be it 30 or 50 amp service, I can advise you whats required.

John T, retired Electrical Engineer

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Quebec Bob

06-01-2006 13:51:45




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to John T, 06-01-2006 11:49:21  
Thanks for this. I will check tonight if it's written on the welder. If not I'll get a competent opinion on the weekend re the questions in your email. I had a pro electrician install the compressor outlet into the panel but the question remains whether the draw requirements on the welder are more demanding than the compressor, again, per your email. I greatly appreciate your professional availability on these questions. I am trying to do what I can without going over the limits of what I need a professional to do. I confess my fear of electricity, especially in my barn (with the animals), which is connected to my workshop, which is connected to my garages, which are connected to my little apartment for my mother when she visits. All of this is about 30' from the house! Again, thanks. I'll post the information when I get it.

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John T

06-01-2006 14:17:12




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 13:51:45  
Youre most welcome, UNLESS thats an awfully large HP 240 volt air compressor, my best guess is the receptacle for it is a 30 amp NOT a 50 like my best guess thinks the welder is !!!!! !!!!! If the welder requires 50 amps, then you will have to run 3 conductor (2 hots and a bare or green equipment ground) 6 gauge wire to it and use a 50 amp receptcle to match the welders plug and use a 50 amp 2 pole 240 volt circuit breaker in the panelboard IFFFFF the panelboard has the ampacity and space to use such???

Theres no free lunch or easy way to do things sometimes grrrrr rrrrr r

John T

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snappie

06-01-2006 11:01:26




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
you went to a bunch of trouble for a few feet of cord. why didn't you just extend the welder cables. my welder is in the front of my shop and has 25' cables. if I have something parked in front of the shop door and can't get close enough to the welder I have 2 other 50' cables with ends. ground clamps in one and the electrode clamps in the other. I set each of the connections in a dry 5 gal bucket, 75' if needed and no noticable difference in preformance

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Stan in Oly, WA

06-01-2006 10:58:58




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
Hi Bob,

You're getting well-intentioned advice on this but some of it is mistaken. If your electrical system was designed and installed correctly (let's assume it was), there isn't much you're going to do at the outlet in the compressor room or with the welder plug that could cause a dangerous situation. What would be dangerous in your situation would be to think you needed a 50 amp breaker to handle the welder and to install one in your panel in place of the existing 30 amp breaker without upgrading the 10 gauge wire coming out of that breaker. Then you would have a situation where an appliance could draw more current than the wire could handle; the wire could burn before the breaker would trip.

In your present situation, on the other hand, what you are doing is to changing the configuration so that an appliance that can draw more than 30 amps (more about that in a minute) will be doing it through a breaker that will trip if more than 30 amps passes through it more than momentarily. In other words, the 30 amp breaker is still the limiting device in the circuit---as it should be. The problem you are more likely to experience is nuisance tripping; the welder overdraws the circuit and trips the breaker. This isn't a situation without consequences. Breakers aren't supposed to be tripped over and over again. The quality of breakers varies greatly by brand. I've had to deal with a number of problems that were caused because breakers failed to do what they were supposed to (but didn't cause a fire.)

I've read on this forum that the national electrical code makes specific exception for the circuit size requirement for welders. My experience is consistent with this. For home shop welding you're unlikely to be welding for long periods at high settings. If you are, you haven't got the right welder for it anyway.

I think you're going to be perfectly satisfied running your welder on a dedicated 30 amp circuit. If it trips the breaker frequently, that would be the time to add a 50 amp circuit on 6 gauge wire (or look into buying a more power efficient welder.)

All the best, Stan

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Quebec Bob

06-01-2006 13:55:11




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 06-01-2006 10:58:58  
I appreciate this good advice. As I wrote above, I'll look into this more closely. I agree with you. I am doing this for fun, not for profit so a couple trips to the breaker switch will only stop me from getting fatter.



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Tom CNY

06-01-2006 08:51:27




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
Picking up where Don LC left off ... Be very careful! Don't just switch your 30 amp receptacle for a 50 amp without checking the gauge of your wires to that receptacle. If you wired in a 30 amp outlet for your compressor, then you probably did not run wire from your entrance panel that is heavy enough to handle the 50 amps for your welder. I'm not an electrican, but I believe that a 30 amp circuit is generally run with #10 conductors, whereas a 50 amp would more likely need at least #8 if not #6, depending in part on the length of your circuit. Check this out with your electrical supplier, or an electrican. None of us would want to see you end up with a fire. Good luck. Tom

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Nat 2

06-01-2006 06:43:00




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Quebec Bob, 06-01-2006 04:50:07  
On a 220V welder, I don't think it matters. Both white and black are "hot," but 180 degrees out of phase with each other. That is, when one is +110V, the other is -110V, making for a total difference of 220V.

Worst case, you ought to be able to figure out white and black by popping the cover off your wall outlet. From there, use an ohm meter or continuity tester to figure out which wire goes to which pin on the plug.

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paul

06-01-2006 08:30:00




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Nat 2, 06-01-2006 06:43:00  
Technically, shouldn't the wires be black & red, tho since most wire laying around is black & white that is what gets used????

--->Paul



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Don L C

06-01-2006 08:29:59




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 Re: Electrical plug on arc welder in reply to Nat 2, 06-01-2006 06:43:00  
The differance in the two plugs is the welder is 50 AMP and the other plug is 30 AMP....look on the plug the newer ones are marked..... .30AMPS is not enough for your welder and 50AMPS is leaving 30 AMP tool unprotected.....the wire size is matched to the plug....

put the green wire on the "U" terminat---the red or black on the brass screw the white wire in the silver screw.....



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