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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Another Air Compressor Question

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Tim Brake

05-19-2006 06:23:19




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Thanks to everyone who answered my first question posted earlier in the forum. Now for the second.

I was at Tractor Supply the other day looking at Ingersoll Rand upright air comprssors. They had 2 machines they were pretty much identical 80 gal tanks, 5 hp motors. One was a single stage that put out 18 cfm at 90 psi. The other was a dual stage that put out 15 cfm at 90 psi.

The dual stage was $300 more than the single stage even though the single stage had more capacity. So which would be the better buy?

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Tim Brake

05-22-2006 09:21:33




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
Wow, I got a lot to chew on. Thanks for the great responses. I'm not sure what my choice will be. I won't be purchasing a compressor until this fall but at least now I know how to compare them. Thanks again everyone.



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TimV

05-19-2006 10:13:21




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
Tim: Your extra $300 is probably getting you a higher-quality pump, most likely running at a slower speed (check motor RPM's and pulley sizes to confirm this), which in turn will run quieter and last longer. It may also have a higher-efficiency motor on it, though you'd have to check the motor labels (which, even then, might not tell you) to be sure. An air compressor is one of the highest electrical loads in any shop, and even a few percent more efficiency will pay for itself many times over during the life of the compressor. As with most tools, the purchase price is only a small fraction of the total life-cycle cost, with electrical cost being the highest portion, and maintenance being next. Properly maintained, either one should last many years, though if you ever anticipate needing more than 120 PSI you'll be glad you spent the extra money on the 2-stage unit.

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Buzzman72

05-19-2006 08:33:17




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
When my dad and granddad ran the garage they operated for 50 years, Granddad explained to me that they had a 2-stage compressor because, for the volume of air they used when painting a tractor--in addition to the normal shop uses going on at the same time--a single stage compressor couldn't keep up with the demand.

But for the Average Joe, who only uses his shop on the weekends or for a few hours at a time--as opposed to 6-7 days a week, 11-12 hours a day--a single stage compressor will probably do everything they need.

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frankiee

05-19-2006 08:24:11




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
The question is how much do you use the compressor. Compressors can soak up a lot of power and people pay for power by the Kilowatt hour. The main advantage of 2 stage is the efficiency it runs at. I don't have any figures right now but if you wish I could try to figure out some rough calculations as to the costs per hour.
But it would take a bit of time because I have a fair bit to do in the next week and I am slow at what I do.

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kestrel

05-19-2006 08:13:09




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
I don't have a technical answer but sounds like the single stage is the best all around buy for the average person with average tools. I see Northern Tool has the single stage you mention, on sale w/ no shipping or tax, for $779.99. They state it's their "best seller". My local TSC has 'em for $750.00. (model # SS5L5)

Kestrel in CT



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ldj

05-19-2006 08:09:39




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Tim Brake, 05-19-2006 06:23:19  
Tim,
That depends on what you need. If you need higher pressure than say 100 or so or so then the single stage won't work for you and it will be a waste of money to buy it. On the other hand if 100 lb is plenty of pressure, then it will be a waste of money to buy the 2 stage. The 2 stage you can store more cf of air but once you use that extra air down, which won't take long, then the single stage will give you more cf air simply because it produces more.

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ldj

05-19-2006 17:12:00




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to ldj, 05-19-2006 08:09:39  
Will you guys please explain to me how a 2 stage is more efficient or quieter, etc. If you have a single stage and a 2 stage with exactly the same size big cylinder on the 2 stage as the cylinder on the single stage and they turn the same rpm, you get exactly the same cfm. That extra smaller cylinder just further compresses the air from the 1st cylinder. Further compressing that air takes power, makes noise, and further compressing makes more heat. The only purpose for that extra cylinder is to increase pressure, not cfm.,in fact it isn't even connected to atmosphere air. I may have been wrong for 50 years but I don't think so. However the majority of the answers on this subject says I'm wrong.

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TimV

05-19-2006 17:56:14




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to ldj, 05-19-2006 17:12:00  
ldj: In a perfect world, you might be right, but once you factor heat, friction, and other losses into the equation, a two-stage compressor is typically more efficient than a single-stage one. For one thing, the cylinder volumes are not usually equal. Because air heats up as it is compressed, there is a limit as to how much you can compress the air before you reach the point of diminishing returns--the air is compressed and heated so much additional compression would take more mechanical power than it was worth. This is the basic reason for a single-stage pump being only able to pump up to 120 PSI or so. It is theoretically possible to compress the air to any PSI you want with a single-stage pump, but in practice, 120 is about the max. A two-stage pump, on the other hand, can pump a larger volume of air with its first stage, cool the air with an intercooler, and then pump this already-compressed but now cool air with its second stage. This means that the first stage is actually pumping more air than the first (and only) stage of the single-stage pump, as it doesn't have to work as hard to get the air to its outlet pressure. Also, as the pump can spread the load between both stages, these pumps typically turn slower to produce the same amount of air. This translates into longer pump life and quieter operation. If you look at commercial-quality units, you'll see that the vast majority are two-stage. Most single-stage units today are cheaper "homeowner" setups, which may be fine for their intended use but are inadequate for most serious use, in terms of longevity, high duty cycles, or high pressure demands. There are certainly exceptions to this rule (you'll find cheap two-stage compressors and well-built single stage ones) but a look through any reputable compressor manufacturer's literature should be enough to show you that most commercial-grade units are multiple-stage.

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Charles (in GA)

05-19-2006 19:55:01




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to TimV, 05-19-2006 17:56:14  
To add to what Tim V has said. The purpose of the higher pressure is to pack more air molecules in the same space, thus a 80 gal tank at 175 psi will deliver more CFMs of air (CFMs are measured in a de-pressurized state) than a 80 gal tank with 120 psi in it. This extra storage capacity adds up to fewer operating cycles. Compressors draw lots of current on startup and much of the wear and tear is caused by the sudden startup, so fewer startups means a longer lasting compressor, and less current comsumed.

With a single stage compressor, you draw down the air from 120 to say, 100 psi and the pump kicks in, and if you are drawing lots of air, the difference between the tanks pressure and what you need for your air tool to operate properly is almost nothing, less than 10 psi. All the while the pump is struggling to bring the tank back up while you are drawing air. End result is you are borderline pressurewise, almost not having enough. With a two stage, you have a 175 max, 145 kick in pressure, and you are regulating it down to 90-100 psi and you have an endless supply of air at a nice stable regulated pressure.

I have a 7.5 horse/80 gal/24 cfm two stage and it is the cats meow. I have a cheap home Depot DA sander and it works the compressor fairly hard, but given the two stage higher pressure regulated down/additional storage capacity of the tank at 175, the compressor keeps up nicely with room to spare. I cannot imagine a similar single stage doing this however.

Charles

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ldj

05-19-2006 21:19:30




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to Charles (in GA), 05-19-2006 19:55:01  
Thanks guys,
In Tims example there was a single stage that put out 18 cfm at 90 psi. The other was a dual stage that put out 15 cfm at 90 psi. Now if you read the specs on that 2 stage, what is the cfm at 125 psi. If it even gives it it won't even be 15 cfm. Read the specs on any compressor, single or multi stage, the higher the pressure the lower the cfm. IOW you don't get something for nothing. You take pressure you give up cfm.
For my money, if I was Tim, I would take the 3 extra cfm (20% more) and save the 300 bucks. Cfm is what runs our tools. If I don't have enough cfm to run my tools at 18 cfm, I certainly won't have enough at 15 cfm. I would take that 300 bucks and put it to a, for example 22 to 24 cfm. single stage compressor and have 33% more cfm of air (60% more that the 2 stage).

For my sand blasting I have a 36cfm single stage 3 cylinder compressor. My thinking was if I want more cylinders, have them all big and all making air. I am very satisfied with my decision. I tried the 2 stage and it simply didn't work for me to have more pressure. What has worked is to have more volume of air.

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TimV

05-20-2006 05:44:57




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to ldj, 05-19-2006 21:19:30  
ldj: The thing I love about this board is the ability to have a difference of opinion with someone without name-calling, hair-pulling and other various dramatics! In that light, I want to mention one thing about CFM, which is to say that in today's world, relying on a bare CFM number to make a decision on which machine to buy is dangerous. CFM is a measure of PUMP capacity, not UNIT capacity. It is also tweaked, poked, prodded, massaged, and in general shamelessly misused by many compressor companies (as are their motor horsepower numbers) in order to sell machines. The reason that CFM ratings go down as pressure goes up is due to the fact that it takes more mechanical power to compress air the more you compress it. Therefore, as the outlet pressure increases, the outlet volume decreases. Granted that that sounds obvious, but it's the foundation for what I'm driving at. The CFM number of the pump bears very little relevance to the CFM rating you'll actually see at the end use. If these two units were hooked directly to the sandblaster (or other end use) without any air reservoir, and if that end use always drew exactly the same amount of air (pressure and volume) all the time, then a comparison of the two units on the basis of pure CFM ratings might make sense. However, I'd be willing to bet next week's beer money (though considering I've still got four beers in my fridge from a 6-pack I bought last Thanksgiving, you wouldn't get much if you won!) that the 2-stage unit will actually deliver more air TO THE END USE (downstream of the tank and any associated piping) at a given PSI than the single-stage one because of its higher amount of storage capacity, even though its bare CFM rating is lower. In addition, it will last longer, run quieter, and take less electrical power to do it. Compressor companies rely on the fact that many uneducated consumers will look at the bare CFM and horsepower numbers to make their decision, when indeed a wise consumer will look much further (checking amp draws and efficiency ratings of the motors to determine actual running horsepower vs. advertised horsepower for instance) before buying. While I can't speak intelligently about which machine Tim should buy without knowing his intended use, in general, there's a reason why the two-stage unit costs $300 more, and if he's planning on running the unit for extended lengths of time I would lean toward the two-stage unit, as he'll save the initial difference in purchase price back several times over in maintenance and electrical costs.

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ldj

05-20-2006 13:58:27




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 Re: Another Air Compressor Question in reply to TimV, 05-20-2006 05:44:57  
Tim V,
You said "The thing I love about this board is the ability to have a difference of opinion with someone without name-calling, hair-pulling and other various dramatics!" I am in total agreement with you on that statement.

Now, we have given Tim plenty of opinions.Hopefully when he makes his decision + a few months down the road he will be satisfied with it.



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