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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

R134 Refrigerant Problem

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wirehair

04-17-2006 06:06:48




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Folks,

I am looking to get a new Freezer and and older sales associate at Sears the other day told me that new appliances (freezers, refrigerators, ac units, etc) that use R134 need to be serviced annually. Service is to check for correct level of refrigerant and top off as necessary.

I was told that if this is not done the unit will potentially stop working.

This gentleman told me that this is due to potential leakage because R134 molecules are smaller.

It sounded to me like an attempt to sell me an extended warranty and I questioned him on that. He denied it, just said that he wanted me to be fully informed.

I've been looking for some facts to confirm this, but have not been able to find them anywhere.

Has anybody heard of this problem with R134 ?

Thank you, wirehair

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hayray

04-20-2006 02:21:08




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
just bought a freezer at home depot, it is a GE and is 25 C.I. that they guarentee to maintane 0 degrees F. and they never said it needed to be serviced. They also delivered it for free, cost about $630.



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T_Bone

04-19-2006 18:14:14




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Hi wirehair,

Key words for telling when your getting ripped off on refrigeration, Topped off, serviced once a year, and the new one the molecules are smaller.

On any hermetic compressor system you will never need a service on the refrigerant unless the refrigerant leaks out from a hole some where. Period! Doesn't matter what type of refrigerant that is used. These are sealed systems that never need serviced, only repaired as refrigerant is NOT expendiable in this type of system.

Shaft driven compressors, like used in automobiles, will need refrigerant serviced over a long time period "providing" they are used once every couple weeks for a few minutes. Running the compressor keeps the shaft seal lubericated to where it doesn't leak, or slows down the period of required service. Most newer cars and trucks use the AC during the winter time for deforsting the windows so making a effort to use the AC is not as important now days.

Most refrigerators/freezers come with a 1yr warrantee on everything except the compressor which is usually 5yrs that includes the refrigerant.

I have found that if a part is defective, it will generaly show up during the factory warrantee period and extended warrantee's are a waste of money.

T_Bone

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John,PA

04-18-2006 14:31:18




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
I think your household R-134a appliance should hold up ok. Expect 10 yrs. out of it.
HTH



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jdemaris

04-17-2006 17:58:51




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 R134 is smaller . . . but . . . in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
What the guy told you about the molecular structure of R134 is correct. It is smaller than other refrigerants such as R22 or R12. But, it only causes problems with rubber hoses - and they are usually only used in applicactions with a lot of vibration must be absorbed - like a car or truck that has an engine-mounted AC compressor. The smaller molecular size of R134 and leakage problems in rubber hoses was known years ago - and subsequently all the rubber AC hoses used now are "barrier" hoses. They are called that because they have an extra barrier lining internally to prevent R134 seepage. Some older cars with rubber hoses intended for R12 with not hold R134 as well. Again - none of this has anything to do with AC systems with metal lines - so it does NOT apply to your new refrigerator.

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jeffcat

04-17-2006 17:37:35




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Boy did you get a lot of opinions! The major kitchen repair company I used to work for did a lot of refrigeration calls. The guys who were trained would tell us of all the headaches with the "new" stuff. R-12, R-404 and all of the "good old days" freons you could top off. You are NOT supposed to do that with the new stuff. They are blends and do not bleed off in the same mix parts. The big systems had to be pulled down and refilled by weight. Then a pressure check on the bigger systems. Small units like your fidge use such tiny amounts of ref. that is very hard to check with a gauge set. The small amount in the hoses will screw up the charge. The really big comercial systems still use ammonia and can go to 30 below! R-12 works much better than R-134 and there is about a good 20 degree differance. R-12 will also go colder than R-134. Remember when the air conditioner in your good old car would almost make you sick it would get so cold??? When you buy a new fridge you will be doing very well if the freezer hits -10 degrees. My old Fridgidair could hit -18. You can pick up the pocket charts at your local ref. dealer. They will tell you what all of the types will do and what will cross over. The part that will screw up in most new units is the stupid capillary tube. It is used as a fluid metering device and all you need is a little gunk or a tiny flake of a seal or some flux to plug it up. "CHEEP" Anyone who tells you that the newer stuff is better than the old because of the ozone layer is full of S>>__&%$&*>>>....! A couple of years ago at the Mexican border it was #1 Cocane-#2Weed-#3something I can't remember and #4Mexican made R-12 and R-404! Now bus loads of them might be number four.
The cans were going for almost $900.oo PER 30lb cylinder. In the US they are not supposed to sell these any more so what is in someones stock is liquid GOLD. What they ask for is what the price is. Just before I left in 2003 they did a large Ice builder systen to the tune of over $8000.oo just for the freon. I heard from a old friend the next time it got converted!
How come there are STILL other countrys in the world making R-12????? ????? ????? ???
Because Dupont's patten ran out in the US stupid! They had to come up with something new.
SEE YOU HAD TO GET ME GOING!!!!
Thats enough.. jeffcat

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hayray

04-20-2006 02:16:14




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to jeffcat, 04-17-2006 17:37:35  
I noticed the R 12 works a lot better in my tractor, finally found some and got rid of that stupid R `134



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lucasss

04-17-2006 16:13:13




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  

huh....i thought fridges used r22.



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Jake 2

04-17-2006 16:06:42




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Well, I think I'd go back and tell Mr. Salesman that I'd really like, no, love to have his appliance....BUT....The guy down the street has a similar model that "He" says won't leak or need yearly service...so you bought it. Even if you didn't. Then leave with no further questions, statements or comments. Not even a goodbye.



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frankiee

04-17-2006 15:20:59




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
So, to me, the salesman was saying that the product is not dependable and will not last very long without problems. People have enough problems without new stoves and fridges being on that list.
I would not get that model because the salesman might be right. Maybe this thing will leak in under a year and be nothing but problems. I would thank the manager for the heads up on the poor quality appliance's and go find a store that will tell me that the fridge they sell me will last 20 years with no problem. And back it with a good warranty.

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ErnieDD

04-17-2006 13:40:06




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Ask sales associate to put it in writing so you can review the pitch with your state attorney general.



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Bob M

04-17-2006 09:49:42




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
That salesman is full of crap! The new R134-charged refrigerators, freezers, etc use hermetic (sealed) refrigerant systems with no provision for periodic checking or topping off the R134 level. They are mechanically no different from earlier R12-charged units in the same price range. Just consider them to be "throw away" products when they quit working.

What is different about the newer stuff is they built mostly offshore, and the compressors, etc are made much more cheaply than the older, domestically built units. Figure on a new unit wearing out after 6 - 8 years of service, rather than 15, 20, 30 or more years you might expect from an older R12 machine.

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jack12345

04-17-2006 08:23:46




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
I too was shopping for a frig and was told by several dealers that the new freezers/frigs dont last like the old ones useing R12. They said you get a max 5-8 years out of new R134 appliance. That seems a short life spand compared to some of the freezers I've seen in operation going 30-40 years.



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CaptRon

04-17-2006 08:17:48




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
My better half used to sell computer at a national electronics chain, they called the extended warranty "SPIFF". They would admonish the sales staff for not having acceptable SPIFF numbers as that is where the money is. She would come home pretty upset if her numbers were down.
Unlike an automotive A/C system there are no compressor shaft seals to leak. The units in refers, freezers, and stationary A/C units are hermetically sealed and will last for decades without developing a leak. Tell the sales person that they are full of it and buy a like unit down the street and then call his manager to let him know how his sales person lost the sale.

CaptRon

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ebbsspeed

04-17-2006 07:55:17




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Your statement "It sounded to me like an attempt to sell me an extended warranty and I questioned him on that. He denied it, just said that he wanted me to be fully informed." pretty much tells the story. The sales folks get a big bonus for selling the extended warranty policies, and I'd definitely lean towards that being the case here. (I could also mention that any sales person whose lips are moving is telling a lie, but I won't.) One thing he was correct about is that the R-134 molecules are smaller than those of it predecessor refrigerants. This is the reason that in a motor vehicle, with the old R-12 plumbing, the R-134 will slowly escape through the rubber hoses, as the rubber compound isn't dense enough to keep the R-134 molecules from migrating through the hose to the atmosphere. Vehicle systems designed for R-134 do not do this. But unlike a motor vehicle, refrigerators and freezers do not have rubber hoses, they are totally sealed aluminum and/or copper systems, so there is no way for the refrigerant to escape unless there is a leak. And chances are once you get past the 5-year warranty period you'll be good to go for a long, long time. No extended service plan required as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, do they now use 134 in refrigerators and freezers? I thought that R-404 was the refrigerant of choice for stationary cooling systems.

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WvaJim

04-17-2006 07:44:42




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
Yeah, he's trying to sell an extended warranty, which may be alright, but freezers/fridges last along time, and most extended warranties are what, 2-3 years, and get real high after that.



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Skip

04-17-2006 07:42:37




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 Re: R134 Refrigerant Problem in reply to wirehair, 04-17-2006 06:06:48  
I think your salesman was full of hooie. New R134A systems hold refrigerant just as well as old R-12 units did. Some leak a little, some don't. This is caused by a myriad of variables. By the extended warranty if you want, but not because of what the salesman told you!



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