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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT-A gripe

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Coloken

04-09-2006 07:30:16

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Why is it that our schools can't teach a short course on electricity? I don't mean an engineering thing, just enough so that every high school kid could run a 110 or 220 from the breaker to a plug in. or hook up a tractor battery to the ammeter to the switch to the lights. No insult meant to those that can't, but its so simple for those that understand basic current flow.

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NEsota

04-15-2006 13:52:15

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

My background, education and experience in electro mechanical would, I believe be considered quite strong. Yes, there is going to be a �BUT� in here someplace� but/and I too often find myself applying what I could have done a very good job on, when doing that task frequently, making stupid and sometimes dangerous mistakes, that would not happen if these skills were used more often. What is spent on a service call can spend really really fast at the ER.

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frankiee

04-11-2006 05:42:09

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I think a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I seen many wire connections that have made me scared when I seen them. my Nephew is such a case. He was taught some basic things somewhere and decided hes an expert and can wire things. Watch him wire some things and ask him some very basic questions and I find he should not be doing the things he is doing. Especially to other peoples property where lives are at stake.
I was home reno for a few years and I seen what some people have done and I believe that with a thing like electricity, that a person should take the time to do it perfectly or not at all.
Think of all the fires that happen because of electricity.
I think that they should not teach electrical courses in school until maybe a high school course where it will be quite extensive to show the people taking the "optional course that it is not as easy as twisting some wires together until it works.
Now I also think that people should have to take more extensive driving courses also. I think that if a person is going to drive then a course should be mandatory (a difficult one).
Each time I see a fire engine screaming out of time I wonder if it was something that could have been prevented by better driving or wiring practices.
I would like to see first aid taught in schools at several levels. I think that would benefit all.
I can't see my daughter taking an electrical class unless she was truly into it.
Now my eyes may see different things now from another time. I am in a city now.
I work as a marine engineer.
I get others to work on my bicycle (because they are better at it than I am).
Now I know this post is about adding a extra outlet here and there but I keep thinking of a certain example of a 16 year old girl adding circuits to her mothers house after taking it in school. we were there for rebuild of the house and the electrical boxes were still open from the fire inspectors. What a mess. No this is not the schools fault. Not the parents fault. Its just one of those things where a person underestimates the unseen danger of electrical current.
I tell my kids "to each their own"
You want to get a job done properly, get an expert in.
I don't want my kids touching things that are dangerous and complicated. Just the other side of the coin to look at.
I know that on farms that it would get very expensive to get people in.
I grew up that way also.
What I am saying is there should be no half way.
Do it right or not at all.

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mechman

04-11-2006 15:48:28

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to frankiee, 04-11-2006 05:42:09

I agree with you. The topic of electrical is too huge just for a short course in school. I am going through an intense 10 week course of basic automotive electrical. It covers alot, but we will barely scratch the surface of all that is involved. A good rule of thumb is, if in doubt, get an expert.

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Jim73

04-10-2006 22:23:00

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

i was reading the posts and have to say i have to get in on this. As an example of myself. 5 years old i was mowing the yard with the riding mower by my self, when i was about ready to stop, i would motion for dad and he would get off the lawn chair and push the clutch in. Decided when i was 12 that the calves i had needed a new barn so me and a friend built a 12X12 building. That night i heard dad tellin mom, that we built that shed just as good as his crew of construction workers. At 13-16 my summers were spent custom hay baling for our neighbors, while they were at work. Do all my tune-ups, oil changes etc. Course i consider myself lucky, i had a great grandfater who was a "jack of all trades" and showed me the basics of just about everything. He always said "common sense can get farther then book smarts alone" Whenever dad would be working on sumthing i was right there watching and asking questions.

Now for my friend. His dads a mechanic, and farmer. He didnt learn how to drive a lawn mower or tractor until he was 16,doesnt know anything about machinery. His summers were spent in-side playing video games and watching tv and listening to music. Hes smart but no common sense. Got his first car. Seen me tuning up mine, decided to do his. Called me later that day said something was wrong with car, went over, when doing his tune up, he just put the plug wires on witch ever plug he could get to. I told him there was such a thing as a firing order, and he said "oohhh, i just figured u plugged them in any old way, didnt know it had to be a to certin plug" and "ohh dont tell my dad about this" Needless to say, iam the one that gets called when sumthing breaks or needs fixing.

Its all in how u were brought up, but most parents dont care, and say hey just pay someone to do it, Or they have parents who know this stuff, but they dont take interest in learning anything, such as my friends above.

Me i have better things to spend my money on, then on paying sumone to do something i can do. Sorry for the long post, just my rant.

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Steve Crum

04-11-2006 05:40:21

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Jim73, 04-10-2006 22:23:00

I'm taking it from reading your post, that you are a young guy. I applaude your drive and willingness to learn. I'm sure you are worthy of the respect of any of us guys. We have a local guy that was always fascinated with old tractors and machinery since he was old enough to walk. His father is mechanical, but it is his Grandfather who is the overwhelming influence in his life. This Grandfather and my own Father grew up 'across the hill' from each other and were the best of friends. This young guy was in somewhat of a quandry in his senior year of high school, a couple different car dealers and machinery dealers wanted him to go directly to work for them right out of high school. His Grandfather wanted him so much to go to college, one night this young guy stopped at my place and we BSed for a couple hours in our natural habitats the tractor shed. I had recently been displaced in my 20 year job by a plant manager in a cheap political move and was working at that time as a temporary millwright at the same company his father works. He had an opportunity to see all I've worked for and gained over the years with out a college degree but with just a HS diploma and a 3 year tech diploma. I explained to him the importance of working for at least a Bachlors degree even in bulgarian literature, or anything.
If you have the talent to back it up. He went on to college, and I was hired on to start up the 2nd shift at a local manufacturer by a plant manager who appreciates 25 years on the floor experience over a college degree (although a degree is most desirable). I'm doing as well as I ever have, but every day is still a brawl for survival. The young fellow got his degree in diesel mechanics and recently was hired on as head of machinery maintenance for the local state highway maintenance district. He's starting out at about $2.50 an hour less than I'm making right now. And I expect it won't be long before his compensation package will pass mine. His Grandfather proudly explained this all to me a few weeks ago, and the example of my life was the determining factor in the direction of this young fellow's. So if you hear that there are no good jobs, translate this into "there are no good jobs for someone with no desire to work for them".

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Steve Crum

04-10-2006 22:00:42

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Just tonight I Handled this type of issue for the umteenth dozen time. Being a production supervisor for the past 20 years I've about seen it all. I'm not real fond of seeing people with their hands in their pockets. (I rarely have time to do it myself). Anyway I had 2 temporary employees on shift tonight. Strapping young guys in their early 20s. First time I walked into the packing area they are standing there BSing, bags are piling up at the end of the line. I informed them that I wouldn't put up with that, they can easily BS while stacking bags, 15 lb bags at that!
Second time I walked in, they are sitting on a pile of pallets, one is talking on a cell phone and bags are piling up. I walked up to cell phone boy and asked him if he was talking to his ride home, To this he informed me that he was on his phone. DUH!!! I not so nicely told him if that was his ride home they had better be here in 5 minutes. I DNRed both of them and ordered them out of the plant. DNR means to a temp agency DO NOT RETURN. Our company means to the temp agency 3/4 of a million dollars in business a year. So a DNR to the DNRed means getting canned by the temp agency the next morning. As fair as we try to be with these "kids", they have no concept of a work ethic.
On the other hand the vast majority of the full time staff on all shifts has been drawn from the temp employee ranks. There are 2 types of temps Ones that ended up as temps due to a bad roll of the dice. (once you understand their story, you find out they do have a passion for doing a good job). And Ones that end up as temps because they have demonstrated that they really have no interest, and are only there because a judge or parole officer says they have to be.

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doodelbug

04-10-2006 19:48:27

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

why should they learn things like that when there are laws that say they cant do those type repairs unless they have a license. im outside the city limits so those rules dont apply to me and i do all of my own repairs. like my daddy said if you cant fix it you better have a good enough job to pay someone else to fix it !!!!!

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Glenn FitzGerald

04-10-2006 19:09:59

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

A very interesting thread. I grew up on a dairy farm raised by parents that are/were second to none. I have now been teaching elementary school 23 years. The raw material we are given to work with becomes INCREASINGLY raw by the year. Mr. Colken, if you could step in a classroom today you would be shocked! ALL the rules have changed. As Oldfarmtractor said, NEVER have teachers been expected to do SO much but with LESS parent support than EVER. Kinda reminds me of the old saying, "never have so few done so much with so little....The American Farmer." Suffice it to say the job of a teacher is harder than it's ever been. Glenn F.

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Mark - IN.

04-10-2006 18:41:53

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

So, does lightning strike from the sky, or just the opposite (in most cases)?

Mark

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Dcop

04-10-2006 13:32:50

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Well I would like to add my 2 cents. I have been sittting here reading your comments. I started working with my hands when I was very young. My grandfather tought my to bild of fix just about what ever I needed to. I got married at a very young age and had 2 boys, neither of which had an interest in learning anything that may get their hands dirty. Now 20 plus years later I get calls from both of them wanting me come over and fix or repair what ever. I make a point to try to teach them how to do this themselves, as dad won't allways be here. Now that I'm law enforcement and no longer make a living building of repairing things ( I do kinda miss it) I can tell you that most of the young people that I come in contact with can't hardly write their own name. I ask them where they work, they don't. Most of them have no skills what so ever. And we wounder why or crime rate is so high. These young people were tought in school to pass the test, not how to make it threw life. They can't count money, they can't read, but they passed high school, because they could play ball. Collage who can afford it. Even if they do get into collage most drop out, classes to hard. Can't party all night and then go to class. Here in central Texas where I live and work we have a state Tech school. Most of the kids going there don't care about learning. I can't tell you how many I have arrested for you name it. When asked why they are to this school, because it get them away from home. A few are good kids and there to learn, the others spoil it for them. when I was in school we had several shop type classes, now you have to go to a tech school to learn to screw in a light blub of to check your oil in your car. Being located on a major highway we get a lot of motorist assist calls. You would beleive how many young adult, men and women call because they can't change a tire or pour gas out of a gas can. Well I guess I will get off of my soap box.

Dcop

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CRUSADER

04-10-2006 21:03:01

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Dcop, 04-10-2006 13:32:50

Dcop,
You speak of a tech school in Central Texas. Would this be TSTC (formerly known as TSTI when I went there)? We have property 20 miles from Waco. I am in Korea right now, but will be back in October.

My father used to always say that one day people would pay for the way that they treated auto mechanics. Well I think the day has either got here or is getting here quick. I've repaired more than one car that was a minor repair and parts were either expensive or not expensive. And people were amazed at what it would cost to have had a garage or the dealership fix it. I do a little handyman work around the boss ladies place when I am at home and help others out from time to time. I do agree, but don't know how it would be best to teach people basic electricity. I have and can do basic wiring but respect them currents a lot. On more than one occasion I've taken apart or opened up and wished I could run. But no place to run to and things had to be fixed or someone was getting hurt or killed. I fixed a swamp cooler for a lady on her house one day, and instead of just repairing it, went a few steps further to make sure it was fixed and that it didn't burn the house down. Who ever had "repaired" it the time before had it rigged and bypassed and I have no idea why it didn't short out.

Take care,
Jim

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oldfarmtractor

04-10-2006 08:36:20

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Let's see, we expect the schools to:

Teach the students to read,

Teach the students patriotism,

Teach the students Math,

Teach the students how to be good consumers,

Teach the students about Native Americans,

Teach the students about the Pilgrims,

Teach the students about the constitutions, state and federal

Teach the students Health,

Teach the students how to cook and clean,

Teach the students History,

Teach the students Science,

Teach the students Current Events,

Teach the students how to care for babies

Teach the students evolution and now "Intelligent Design"

Teach the students Physical Education,

Teach the students Welding, Woods,

Teach the students Manners,

Teach the students Writing,

Teach the students S-e-x Ed-without practice/homework. Had to add the hyphens due to page blocking. I wonder if kids could figure that one out?

Prepare the students for College,

Prepare the students for a Job,

Prepare the students for Vocational Schools

Prepare the students for the Military,

And now we need to teach the students how to wire their homes?

Why can't the parents take over some of this burden like when we were kids?

Why don't the parents take the kids to the library where they can obtain the books that can teach them the wiring, provided the student knows how to read?

BTW, I have taught H.S. Math, Physics, Chemistry, Physical Science, Basic Physical Science, Earth Science, Autos and Electricity. The last two were the toughest because the students had no desire to learn any of it. They were taking the classes so they might have a better chance of graduating.

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Stan in Oly, WA

04-10-2006 11:46:32

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to oldfarmtractor, 04-10-2006 08:36:20

Everything you say is exactly right, as are most of the comments by others on this topic. But I'm starting to believe that we're all missing the point when we identify shortcomings of the individual aspects of the current popular culture. The public education system is as good an example as any, but only one of many mutually supporting elements of the belief system that promotes and maintains our way of life. Our public schools don't educate because they are no longer oriented toward providing an education, they provide an educational experience. At the end of an educational experience you get a diploma or degree that means that you have completed the educational experience---nothing more, nothing less.

Toward the end of the Roman Empire, ships arrived from North Africa filled with sand for the arenas rather than with grain for the hungry populace. The "games" were more effective than full bellies in distracting the people from the problems that were destroying their civilization.

The common people in America today seem to be living in a dreamworld in which self-gratifying actions have no consequences; borrowing without possibility of repayment, squandering natural resources without thought to their end, looking to technology to save us. In the future we'll maintain our standard of living by designing websites for each other, a valuable and high paying skill.

Our government offers wars of distraction, junk science to justify ignoring crucial issues, increasingly hollow claims of how our moral superiority and good intentions justify our self destructive lifestyle, and exhortations to be fearful and to spend. Our corporations urge us to consume, be current, and borrow. Bliss is just the next purchase away.

Those of us who can remember or imagine values that could make us grow and prosper stand by helplessly shouting that the emperor has no cloths; but no one can hear us because they have the latest music delivery devices plugged into their ears so that they can listen uninterruptedly to music which promotes the vilest imaginable human values.

Is that a rant, or what?

Stan

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fepo

04-10-2006 08:24:07

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I beleive the problem is the parents first, not the kids. If the parents never learned these trades and applied them from time to time they will not push their kids or the schools to teach it. Society has taken a bad turn in that kids are left to do whatever they please or they will sue the parents!

So the trade workers take advantage of these people when they can, since they never learned to turn a screw driver and are willing to pay for someone to do it.

Then us folks here who 'know' plenty enough about all sorts of trades get frustrated beyond printable words when we need to get something done by one of these trades people(becasue time does not allow us to do everything) and they try to pull a fast one !!!! ooof that kills me.
My quote lately has been "I wish I didnt know so much" I would be more relaxed and enjoy life as it is.... damn it.

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jughead 2

04-10-2006 04:00:49

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

being an agriculture teacher I have given up on teaching shop-the reasons are as follows
1-kids have no common sense
2-kids have no motivation to learn these skills
3-most parents will/cannot do it themeslves and see no need for there little one to do it
4-liability-big time
5-kids want no dirt on there hands
6-being an elective it is a losing battle-they would rather be in gym playing ball and watching little sally in shorts
7-the admistrators do not support us(superintendant/principal)they see us as a total waste of facility, staffing and more important money.
Living in a state with a testing system(which by the way is a failure-we do nothing but teach the test and the actual assesment of the response are curved big time at the state level)the whole evaluation of a program is set up on how many questions are on the test( ie if there is only one agriculture question on 5 tests-why employ an ag teacher-put the emphasis where the greatest weight of the test is-which is writing. The local superintendant said to our farm bureau president-That he could envision our high school without an ag department.
Sports is eating up a large amount of the districts budget-which is what the community wants. You cannot add soccer and the facilities to support it without something having to go.
Our kids and even the parents believe that they are above getting there hands dirty-there is probably no more than 10-20 kids at our school of 1000 that will do heavy farm labor. The rest are to busy playing video games and listening to rap music. Yet we wonder why the mexicans are taking this country by storm.
Not to mention the lack of discipline in public schools and the approach that all kids are a success-we cull none, what type of livestock producer can say they do that-I know a very crude comment. In our state we are to busy putting a round peg in a square hole. All kids are going to college-none are educated for a vocation in the craftsman skills. Heck in a few months we may mandate that all take the ACT test. As Cal Thomas said in an article about the immigrant problems "HAVE WE ALL GONE MAD"
have a great day

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James in North Carolina

04-09-2006 21:21:07

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

The reason vocational courses are not taught as often as they once were is simple: parents do not want their kids taking them. If large numbers of parents wanted their kids to take these courses the schools would offer them.

Money is poured into sports because communities care about having a good football team playing in a nice stadium. Friday night high school football games here draw 1000+ to each of our high schools. In November when we had parent-teacher conferences, I had a grand total of two parents show up.

As to making something a required course, don't. Required courses wind up being garbage courses. If students have to pass it to graduate, it will be taught at such a low level it would be worthless.

In most states, graduation requirements are set by the elected officials in the state legislature not school administrators. If vocational programs are being phased out, ask your elected officials why.

The comment on grade inflation was on target. Grade inflation is common. Why? Because teachers that try to have demanding standards catch flak from parents that whine because their little brain surgeon is not making in A. I hear so many people complain about how kids graduate without knowing anything, then complain because their kid's teachers are "too hard".

Another problem here has been finding someone qualified to teach many of these courses. One of our school had three consecutive auto tech teachers quit in the span of six weeks. Our auto tech teacher quit after one of his students sprayed the rotors of a car they had worked on with WD-40 causing the brakes to fail when it was driven from the shop.

He wanted the kid kicked out of school. The kid's parents hired a lawyer and threatened lawsuit so the school board said no to expelling him. The result was the auto tech teacher quit.

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Ryman

04-09-2006 19:52:36

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

As I sit here and read this, I think about the instructors from the past that would turn in their graves if they knew what was happening in the trades classes these days. I'm not 30 yet, so it's fairly fresh in my mind the situation with said classes.

When I was still in high school, I thought it was fun, but also very PRACTICAL to know how to do these things. I'm now in the electronic field by trade and I would give anything to do it all over again.

What's better than getting useful knowledge in school? LOL, there I go being practical.

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T_Bone

04-09-2006 19:20:44

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Hi Ken,

About 16yrs ago I went to our local high school book store and asked to buy a chemistry book. He gave me a funny look and said you might want to read a small amount of that book before you buy it. Ok, it was not even basic chemistry book. He sold me a college chemistry book and said that the high school books hasn't taught basic chemistry for years.

My 15yr old Grandson has alot of trouble with basic reading and math, (read this as very poor basic skills). I was trying to help him out but he didn't need any help as he's making C's and B's as it is. But I says, you can't read very well or figure out simple math problems, ahh but Grandpa I make C's and B's and your old methods won't work in todays world, that's according to his teacher. Mom and Dad told me to mind my own business.

Times have changed thats for sure.

T_Bone

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Mark - IN.

04-10-2006 19:12:28

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to T_Bone, 04-09-2006 19:20:44

One day I'm on my way to a job, listening to talk radio, and the nationally syndicated guy's got a math book in his hands from some school (or district) in Brooklyn, NY. and he's describing it. Had 400+ pages to it, less than 10 have math problems on it or are related to math. The others? Social engineering. Beautiful.

I haven't seen it yet, but my sister's daughters (2nd and 4th grades) math books have been totally reformulated. 2+2=4, and 5x5=25, but how you and I got those answers isn't how they do it. My sister and brother-in-law told me tried to help their daughters do their home work, and when showed their daughters how 2+2=4 and 5x5=25, they started crying "that's not how its done". So they looked it up in the back, and the world's been wrong forever. There's a new way to do it, one which no one but the author and the bewildered teachers that have to use them understand. Beautiful.

Saw a Purdue University professor on TV one night whom argued that it wasn't the (correct) answers that children came up with, the only thing that mattered was their effort. Beautiful.

Last I heard, the SAT tests were reconfigured to bring up the scores nationally. No, there's not an increased effort to educate the children, just an effort to raise the scores by lowering the standards. They brag that the scores are up, but somehow we continue to lose rankings amongst the rest of the world in leaps and bounds in terms of education. Beautiful.

By the way, remember when teachers were called teachers? Was before were replaced by educators. Those have since been replaced by mentors. And parents are now divorced by their children and replaced altogether. Beautiful.

Like I heard Ron White say the other night, "...you can't fix stupid".

Mark

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Jimmy King

04-09-2006 20:23:19

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to T_Bone, 04-09-2006 19:20:44

What is really sad is if your bill is $9.21 and you give these kids a 10 and 21 cents it blows there mind they don;t know what to do.

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Chris Jones

04-09-2006 18:50:41

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Most men I run into think they're super handy men. What they lack in skills they sure make up for in confidence.

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KEH

04-09-2006 18:03:19

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Before my daughters were allowed out with a car, I required them to demonstrate the ability to change a flat tire. I also gave them pliers and both kinds of screwdrivers to keep in the car or in their apartment. Once my oldest called me and said a mechanic wanted $200 to fix a leaking valve cover gasket because he would have to remove air cond pump and other stuff to change the gasket. I went to another car of the same make, saw that NOTHING obstructed the 6 screws holding on the cover, told her to take her Phillips screwdriver and tighten the screws which would probably stop the leak, and find another mechanic who wasn't looking to rip peaple off. She called me back later and said I was right.

KEH

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Davis In SC

04-09-2006 17:11:33

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

It seems that most schools look down on anything that even resembles a "Trade". Young people now also have little or no interest in doing anything for themselves. I had an interesting experience , about 10 years ago, I knew a guy, from the city, brilliant mind, had a Master's in math. He was absolutely shocked that people changed their own oil, fixed their own cars & trucks, etc. He said he had never even washed his own car, that it was better to pay an "Expert" to do it... And him being a CPA, he was also shocked that I did my own taxes. Of course, I guess he makes enough, that he can afford to pay to get everything done..

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Steve Crum

04-09-2006 16:37:41

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Saddest part of this all is this has been going on long enough now that a lot of Dad's don't have a clue as to these sort of things, thus they certainly cannot teach their kids like my Dad taught me. Most aggravating to me is the fact that my 18 year old son won't take any interest and never has. Later these kids lament of how the old man took these 'secrets' to the grave with him.

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Fawteen

04-10-2006 01:35:29

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Steve Crum, 04-09-2006 16:37:41

... Most aggravating to me is the fact that my 18 year old son won't take any interest...

Ain't it the Truth? My son is 43 and just bought his first house after 20-odd years of living in apartments. I get about a call a week on "How do I..." or "What tool should I buy..."

Both grandsons going down the same road. Other than "helping" me in the wood shop when they were 5-6-7, (which consisted of bending finishing nails and beating everything in sight with a hammer) they got NO interest in tools at all. Older one wanted to "learn to weld". He did all right with a MIG but when I tried to show him a few of the finer points of a good weld instead of sticking with "the bigger the blob, the better the job" he said "It's too hard" and lost interest.

They're thinking they're gonna go ta college and step right out of their graduation gown into a 6-figure sit-at-a-desk-and-look-important job.

They get really steamed at me when I look at their report card and say "Ya gotta get outta High School first..."

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Dick2

04-09-2006 15:37:08

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I also think that should be a required course. I had our daughter doing electrical wiring and connections by the time she was 9 years old. Now she's a Superintendent for a major construction company building the bay bridge in San Francisco. If the schools don't do it, you should lead your kids to as many learning situations as you can to give them a greater opportunity to find what they really want to do with their lives.

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john d

04-09-2006 15:12:18

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I think that would be splendid idea. Don"t hold your breath till it happens, however. The short answer is, there"s little support for it at the administrative level.

I started out as an industrial arts teacher. Over the years things have changed, and I"m now called a technology teacher. I"m in a middle school, grades 6-8. Years ago, my students were all boys, and I taught some drafting, woodworking, metalworking, small engines, and electricity; all of that was pretty basic. Times changed, and more girls started taking the classes. Times changed some more, and the classes became required instead of elective.

Then some new factors came into play. My state, like others, started high-stakes testing and putting increased emphasis on those tests. About 10 years ago, my school superintendent decided my classes probably weren"t going to be needed any more, as I wasn"t teaching math, English, science, or social studies. My principal looked at me one day, and said, "I"m don"t really know WHAT to tell you to do, but you"d better figure out WHAT to do, and do it quickly, or your program will be out the door in a year or less!" My co-worker and I brainstormed the situation, and cut everthing we were doing into "modules" 5-8 class periods in length, and tied it all to the state standards in the core courses. The program survived, and included a unit on basic electricity, and another on house wiring.

Ten years later, I"m in a new building, with a tech lab that"s a dandy. The downside is, however, that the administrators decided foreign language was more beneficial to the kids, so I now see my classes every-other day for a semester. That"s about 45 days of instruction, and it"s now all elective again. I have an electricity/electronics module in that lab, but only about 20% of my students ever get to rotate through that adventure.

The liability issue is a legitimate concern. I had a situation several years ago where I was threatened with a lawsuit over some problems that were the result of an 8th grader "experimenting" with electricity - at home! Somehow, you can teach a kid to cut boards with a saw, or take an engine apart, and not run the risk of having someone"s child decide that the activity is as attractive to "play with" as electricity is. The concepts of basic circuits and fundamental house wiring can easily be taught at the middle school level. Unfortunately the stuff is an attractive nuisance to the immature and un-supervised.

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Stan in Oly, WA

04-09-2006 14:44:06

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Hi Ken,

The local community college started in 1962 as Olympia Voc-Tech ("Here for you since '62"/"If you lived here, you'd be home now"/ "Take the Pepsi challenge.") Now their fondest hope is to get it accredited as a 4 year college, dump the embarrassing welding and automotive programs, and turn out more accountants and business majors (and nurses, to give them their due---unless that profession starts to seem too disgustingly hands on.) Job security for me doesn't quite cover the problem of what kind of a country this is going to be when the people who know how to do things are all gone.

Lots of luck, Stan

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the tractor vet

04-09-2006 11:14:41

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Why is it that they do not offer wood shop or metal shop anymore in highschool or home economics , because nobody takes it as ya just might have to get your hands dirty and to do shuch meanaul tasks as drive a nail or make a book case or lamp when ya can just go to walley world and buy it from China or buy a TV dinner and throw it in the Micro wave and have it all there i a box in 10 min. Sure glad that my girls know how to do a few things and they can even cook a real meat and tater dinner.

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I agree

04-09-2006 10:09:57

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

but... here's a true story. Guy I worked with was a journeyman industrial electrician who was having a new home built for himself. He was NOT allowed to do his own wiring. Where he built the local code said it had to be a residential electrician licensed for that area. So, doubtless the laws will tend towards "protecting people from themselves".

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dr.sportster

04-09-2006 10:09:21

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Under present OSHA regulations all hot work would require an arc flash protection suit to be worn.Do a google search and check it out.Its real expensive.Schools need liability ins. for football and other sports.Now they have hockey also.When I was a kid the parents started the hockey and it had nothing to do with school.

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Bill WI

04-09-2006 09:55:43

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

Yup, put the bucks in sports. Heck QB up here gets big bucks and is too busy in the golf limelight to decide if he's coming back or retiring. He has to watch if team management is putting together a team worthy of his coming back. lol Probably should be watching how the other teams will be catching his interseptions too.

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Glen in TX

04-09-2006 09:13:05

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I can agree with that gripe and many schools have pulled the plug on real learning for the real world. We had a electronics class when I was in high school but they wouldn't go into teaching more on just basic house wiring than just talking about it breezing by it in book. Still didn't learn what I wanted in electronics and was disappointed in the class and instructor and bought my own books to learn myself more later. Many high schools that had ag programs, mechanics programs and other shop programs pulled the plug and shut them down lately. Stupid administrators there now don't care or understand the importance of those programs because they weren't required to work in the real world before being given an administrator job. A friend of mine teaches in a alternative school where they are just trying to get kids to pass the basics of science and math to pass taks test for a degree or GED and stupid administrators in office jobs at school are trying to pull the plug on some of that now. They just require administrators to have masters degrees and hire too many with no real experience working in education and the real world is what 99.9% of the problem is with our education programs today. Just look at how some of the career politicians get to where they are today with no prior experience for example.

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Hntndaylight

04-09-2006 20:12:29

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Glen in TX, 04-09-2006 09:13:05

One reason schools are closing ag mech and any other hands on classes is lawsuits. Ag mechanics teacher here got sued (personally), for $900,000 over a broken leg in a simple accident. He won, but it cost almost a quarter of a million to defend it.

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Bilko

04-09-2006 08:47:11

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

My wife is a teacher here in Michigan! But I have always felt the same way you do Steve. They can spend millions on sports or on the looks of the school. Why not try and spending it on teaching the kids and not worry how big and beautiful their school is or where they are ranked in sports. My wife use's quit abit of our own money to buy things for the class room to teach. I don't care because I know with out it the kids would learn less. And I also belive that every school in the usa should be teaching the same text not differ from one school to another!!! Mike from MI

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RustyFarmall

04-09-2006 08:47:09

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

When I was in school way back in the 50s and 60s we did study electricity. It was covered in the basic science courses all the way from the elementary level up through at least seventh and eighth grades. You didn't learn enough to go out and be a certified electrician, but you did learn basic circuits and wiring. I think it should still be taught in the schools. We all use it, and we all should know enough about it to at least keep ourselves safe.

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Steve Crum

04-09-2006 07:55:52

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Coloken, 04-09-2006 07:30:16

I asked the same question of one of our illustrious school administrators awhile back and was told that 'that's a tech school's job'.
"We're not insured or have the financial resources to hire someone specifically trained in an area the wouldn't benefit a majority of students".
He went on to remind me that I'm the first to b***h every year when my taxes go up. So I reminded him that the 3 million dollars they spent on the new athletic complex, along with the nearly 90 million they spent upgrading all the school buildings in the district, would have gone a long way in teaching these kids basic survival skills. Like I tell my cyber Geek kid, Once you get in the real world, you'll develop a healthy respect for us old dog millwrights when we hand you a $200.00 invoice for something you could have done yourself with basic tools and 10 bucks in parts. Of course I got the usual "yeah..yeah..yeah"!

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Dog's Friend

04-09-2006 09:15:12

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Steve Crum, 04-09-2006 07:55:52

BIG 10-4 on Steve's last statement. I work as a handyman and I can't believe the stuff I get hired to do. Somewhere in the past Dad's stopped teaching their kids (sons AND daughters) which end of a screwdriver to hold on to.

I was recently hired to assemble a computer desk that came unassembled from Walmart or some such place. The guy that hired me was clueless on how to screw the shelves together, but he did offer to build me a nifty website. Told hime "No Thanks" the $30 a month I spend in ads in the local paper keep me busy enough.

I can't tell you how many folks I've run across that don't have any idea where their main water shutoff valve is. They think they need a plumber to turn it off.

End of rant.

-Dog's Friend

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Steve Crum

04-09-2006 09:36:12

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Dog's Friend, 04-09-2006 09:15:12

I'm actually tickled to death that people are not learning these skills. My net value goe's up every graduation day! My Grandpa always told me that if a man(or woman) has the tools and smarts to use them, their family will never go hungry.

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van robinson

04-10-2006 03:14:28

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Re: OT-A gripe in reply to Steve Crum, 04-09-2006 09:36:12

Steve, in a way I agree with you. The fewer people that know how to do what we can do mean better job security. Some people I know seem to think that "trade" jobs are for people that may not be able to afford college or are "not smart enough" for non tech jobs. I went to college and to a union based electrical apprenticeship school. Learned a great deal. Now, I work for a major electric tool corporation as a maintenance tech. Ill be willing to put my paycheck up against many of those who graduated high school with me and looked down on me for what I do. They ask what I make and their jaw usually drops when I give them the answer.

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