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Concrete for shop

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Randy_NE

03-30-2006 06:39:50




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I will be getting quotes for pouring concrete in my shop next month and have some questions.
The pole barn builder said that the concrete guys will use the base of the building as the edge board and that no fill is needed. The building site has been level for about 5 years.
So does that mean they will pour right onto the grass?
Does a vapor barrier need to be used?
What about rebar, is that something I can do?

Can't find much on the net with any step by step info, so any real world experience would be great.

Randy

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hunitngreen

03-31-2006 21:16:27




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
I don't know why you would need a rat wall. I would remove all the grass and top soil. Put in 4 inches of # 57 gravel. Install a vapor barrier over that. Put 1/2 rebar on at a minimun of 2 ft centers. Pour 5000 lb concrete 4 inches thick or thicker if you are going to put real heavy loads on it. Pour it with a # 4 slump. Forget the fiber stuff. I have never seen it work. You might consider taking a post hole digger and digging you a few pier holes and filling them with concrete. I did this on fill dirt and have never seen a crack in my floor after 15 years.

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Dave NE IA

03-31-2006 17:42:37




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
Sure hope I do not step on any toes, but I think you said that the fill has sat for five years. If so you could spray round up and let it melt down to nothing. This will be far cheaper than a skid loader with a expert driver over digging and then filling it back in. Also If you remember to wet the fill down just prior to pouring I do not recomend a vapor barrior if and only if you have no chance of moisture under the concrete slab. I want the fill under the slab to draw the moisture away from the slab if you have freezing and thawing going on. If so concrere sweats a few days of the year and the moistue barrior will stop this from drawing the moisture away. Just food for thought. Dave NE IA

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RickL

03-30-2006 11:14:29




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
Yes you can do alot of it. Main are 6" to 8 inch thick. 1/2 inch rebar layed to make either 12 or 16" squares. plastic down yes. solid bas of reject lime or sand packed and [packed and packed. Your cement is only as good as the base underneath Period. Footing all around outside period.



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jhill

03-30-2006 08:44:33




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
The guys below have good information. Definitely need to get rid of organic material. Make sure fill is well compacted. Dig down at least another 12 inches below each door and add rebar to prevent cracking. I would put fiber in the concrete for additional strength. I used 5 inches and it is strong enough for all but the biggest equipment.

Jerry



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Midwest redneck

03-30-2006 08:08:39




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
The way to do it right is to have a guy with a skid loader take off the top 6-8 inches of grass and top soil and lay in 4 inches of fill sand and grade and screed it level then pour concrete over the sand. A rat wall is also a footing. 42" in Michigan area where I live. 12" wide A rat wall or footing is used on garages to support the weight of the walls and prevent frost heave. If you have a pole barn which has poles buried 4' deep then you might be okay, check with inspector

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George in Biloxi

03-30-2006 07:45:18




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
With the shop not being living space, it may not require vapor barrier. However, with the price of concrete and the typical life of the building, I would do it right. If it is a good size building and you will be putting equipment, cars, etc in there and driving over it, do it right. I would dig out the organic soil, back fill with clay or a good fill like crushed stone and compact, dig 16" footers around the base, put in 6 mil plastic sheet as a vapor barrier and tie in 3 strands of #4 rebar around the perimeter (or at least the entrance. Then add your wire mesh across the floor area supported on bricks every 48" (to keep it up off the ground and in the concrete). You also need to modify this if you are in a freeze area. This is an over all idea and not step by step. I over build. The vapor barrier will be even more important if your barn is tight or if you ever want it sealed good. Your mileage may vary. There are many things to consider.

George

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Randy_NE

03-30-2006 07:42:38




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
I will be going 5 inches thick for the floor.
What is a rat wall? we have no rats here that I know of anyway.
Is there info on how to install rebar?

Randy



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M.R.

03-30-2006 08:21:02




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 07:42:38  
Construction Manual:
Concrete & Formwork
By T. W. Love
ISBN 0-910460-03-5

This is a Great Manual, if you use a contractor or do it youself.


"Is there info on how to install rebar?"
For the floor load I would want the rebar in the bottom 1/3 of the pour. The tightest _single_ grid I prefer work with is 9"x12" [allowing one to step thru without walking on].
Don't shave nickels on the rebar!! and it dosen't hurt to add a few pieces where the wheel tracks will be.

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4speed

03-30-2006 07:41:02




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
I would not pour directly on grass. Clear that off and decide how thick to pour. If the contractor has not poured and finished concrete on plastic, he will screw up the job. If you put plastic down, add about 4" of compacted sand on top of the plastic and fewer problems with finishing will occur. Place a strip of roofing black paper on the boards around the edge to help break the bond to the concrete, also around any posts that are in the concrete. The concrete will pull away from the boards in time and a clean bond break is needed for a nice job. The need to brace the boards from the outside is good if the dirt around the outside is not holding the boards in place. To help minimize the interior cracking, make sure to cut joints as needed. If you do not want the groves in the surface, have the contractor use a trowel to cut the slab with a trowel 2/3 of the depth of the slab. Then trowel the floor as normal. No expansion grouves will be showing, but as the concrete cures the normal cracking will occur in the trowel cuts and be minimal. If you utilize a good concrete mix (4000 psi mix) and a good depth (6" or more) you may not need rebar or mesh dependent on the use of the building and the sub base that the slab is poured on. Keep the slab wet for 30 days to achieve maximum strength in the concrete. Good Luck.

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George in Biloxi

03-30-2006 07:47:14




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to 4speed, 03-30-2006 07:41:02  
Good advice too.



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Bill in NorthCentral Pa

03-30-2006 07:34:19




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 Re: Concrete for shop in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
Steve has it right. Recommendations: rebar grid the floor, something like #4 bar 12" each direction. Fibermesh the concrete. Remove all "dirt" and plant material and grade with stone. Pour concrete to the top of the base girt (horizontal member at the bottom of the siding). Brace girt well from outside to prevent bowing. I stake and backfill, then remove fill after floor sets - usually when sawcutting the next day. Sawcut into squares 1/4 slab depth. Square size shouldn't exceed 20' x 20', with 12' x 12' being my preferred maximum. Spray (or roll) a coat of curing compound the night of the pour and one the next night - not only controls the rate of hydration (drying), but also provides a "cleaner" floor.

Good Luck,

Bill
ps. Welded wire mesh is used incorrectly so often that it is not really an applicable product.

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steve from mo - dangit!

03-30-2006 06:59:49




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 Need more info. in reply to Randy_NE, 03-30-2006 06:39:50  
You, not me.

How thick is the concrete going to be?

Will there be a "rat wall" foundation under the concrete?

Will they install the rebar? You need rebar if you are going to bring anything heavy into the building, and you will.

If those boards at the bottom of the walls are like most pole buildings, they will bulge out when the concrete is poured. Concrete is heavy. You don't want those bulges; if the concrete contractor is going to use those boards as forms, you will need them braced or staked.

That's a start.

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