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underground electrical circuit

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genep

03-12-2006 15:11:20




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I'd appreciate comments/opinions on how to protect an underground circuit extending from a 20 amp non-GFI breaker in a building. I've tapped into a wall box to run the underground circuit to our church sign. I would feel better about the underground portion being GFI protected. Should I put a GFI breaker just ahead of the underground portion, or just change the breaker in the panel to a GFI? If the best option is to protect the ug portion with it's separate breaker, should it be a 15 amp or 20 amp? Thanks for your help, Gene

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genep

03-12-2006 18:47:05




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 15:11:20  
I knew I could depend on you guys! Thaks for the ideas and reminders. To cover some of the information I left out: The run will be about 350', voltage is about 123v where the ug portion starts. I'm using #10 2w with ground, direct burial rated wire. The sign has (2) 40w flouresceent bulbs. We don't have gophers, but I will put it in PVC. There will be one outdoor receptical in the run, thus the need for a GFI. Really my question on breaker size is to protect the branch circuit in the building in the event there is a problem with the underground circuit. My thinking is that a 15 amp GFI on the ug portion will trip under fault and leave the interior of the building operating.

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larry in tn

03-13-2006 04:47:07




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 18:47:05  
Everyone has given you good advice. My only comment is to plan ahead and put a circuit large enough for possible future need's. A single GFI/Duplex receptical at the sign/load end would be the simplest approach.



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paul

03-12-2006 21:16:44




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 18:47:05  
For that distance, your #10 is too small for a 15 amp circut, you will have a voltage drop of 13 volts. Very hard on an electric motor, you should keep voltage drop to 5% or less, not 11%. This is assuming you used copper wire, al would be even worse.

You can check voltage drop here:
Link

So, go 15 amp breaker at most, not 20!!!! :)

I understand you do not intend much of a load down there, but you are putting an outlet there, and those do need to be designed to 15 amps - so you are kinda stretching things at 15 amps. Next person comes along, sees an outlet, & will plug in a 15,000watt heater plus the sign..... .. You know how it goes. You shoulda used 6ga copper for a 15 amp at that distance, & 4ga for a 20 amp circut.....

I would use a seperate 15 amp GFI, as you say it won't shut down the building should it trip. Wonder what that building is fed with if it is only a 20 amp box you have in the building - could easily be a 12ga wire, it should be more than 10ga wire to make this all nice & working.....

--->Paul

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genep

03-13-2006 06:22:37




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to paul, 03-12-2006 21:16:44  
The receptical will be about 50' from the breaker.The calculator says that the there will be 115.7 volts at the sign at 5 amps, and we will have less than one amp load there, and no receptical. Thanks for all your help



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Richard H.

03-13-2006 07:29:35




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-13-2006 06:22:37  
One last chance..., you will be disapointed if you use a Gfi breaker. Use a gfi recpt, and proper enclosure.



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genep

03-13-2006 10:19:34




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to Richard H., 03-13-2006 07:29:35  
I don't want to make any mistakes, that's why I'm asking here. My reasoning for the GFI was for maximum human protection in case of a dig-in. Are you thinking there will be problems with false tripping of the GFI breaker? I appreciate your advice.
Gene



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Richard H.

03-13-2006 10:55:22




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-13-2006 10:19:34  
I understand and It would be nice to make it fool proof. Code wise it should be a minimum of 18 inches deep. If you are that concerned maybe you should use rigid pipe, (conduit). There is also a RED plastic safety tape, you know like "Police Line do not cross" that you can put a few inches above your line to warn someone it is there. Good news is you can go ahead and use the gfi breaker and when you get tired of it tripping, you can use a regular breaker and then get yourself a gfi recpt. to put outside.

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genep

03-13-2006 18:18:41




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to Richard H., 03-13-2006 10:55:22  
OK, Thanks. You've told me what I need to know.
Gene



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1 Denny

03-12-2006 17:35:24




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 15:11:20  
Couple of ideas here.

1. Can you tap into a gfi recp. ckt. to feed your sign?

2.Can you install a gfi recp. in your wall box and feed your sign off the load side of the new gfi recp.?

3.Unless the run to the sign is a long one, voltage drop should not be a problem, depending on how much the sign draws.

4.Make sure your run to the sign is uf rated wire or in conduit.

5.If your run is exposed either when it enters the ground or leaves the ground it must be protected with conduit, the simple way is protect it in pvc conduit when it enters and leaves the ground, then you dont have to mess with grounding the conduit.

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alc

03-12-2006 16:53:19




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 15:11:20  
you may have been given some wrong info. first it would depend on your local electric supplier on what code they have adopted. as far as protecting outside circuits that in somewhat untrue, you do have to protect it if it has a receptacle. you do not have to protect it if is going to the sign only and conected to the sign. and you do not have to put a 20 amp breaker on the #12 you could put a 15amp you just can't fuse it above what your wire size is. and the best way to protect it is with a gfi breaker if you are concerned, but if it is conected right with a ground you do not need it.

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Richard H.

03-12-2006 15:37:43




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 15:11:20  
The only reason I would go GFI at the sign would be for a GFI recpt. at the sign.



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Skip

03-12-2006 15:37:06




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to genep, 03-12-2006 15:11:20  
OK! Several questions need addressed here. First the size of the breaker is completely dependent on the size of the wire you're going to run. If you run #12 AWG, you have to use a 20 amp. breaker. If you run #14 AWG, you have to use a 15 amp. breaker. I'd run #12 AWG and use a 20 amp. breaker, but you didn't say how far it is from the breaker panel to the sign and that could well be a consideration. Outside circuits require GFI protection because it's what's known as a wet & damp area.
Would be glad to offer more specific if you contact me at sbilson@peoplepc.com
By the way, you didn't say where this church is but I'm a licensed master electrician in the state of Colorado.

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steveormary

03-12-2006 16:06:59




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 Re: underground electrical circuit in reply to Skip, 03-12-2006 15:37:06  
genep

You are putting the wire in pvc conduit for protection from gophers and such.

steveormary



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