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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Shop air system...

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scott#2

03-07-2006 18:04:30




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I plan to plumb the shop up for air. The air outlet on the tank is 1 1/4". What size line should I run? Should I bush it down to 1 inch or even 3/4"? The regulator and filter I got has 1/2" in and out, doesnt make much sense to me to run 3/4 just to reduce it down to 1/2. I've been hammering the net pretty hard and I am surprised how few diagrams and suggestions are out there for plumbing a shop up. Should I take these units back and get ones with 3/4" in and out? I was planning to use galvanized steel pipe on the runs. I sure could use some help with this one from you air guys out there. I do run 3/4 impacts and do some sandblasting on occasion. I like to restore old tractors and cars. About the only thing I could find out there was the link below. It did clear some thing up. But at this point I think I need a reality again from you guys.

Thanks,

scott

http://www.oldsmobility.com/air-compressor-piping.htm

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jubilee johnny

03-09-2006 08:18:36




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
There are probably other sources, but look on the website of www.tptools.com. They have information on piping, filters, and lots of stuff. I am about ready to order one of their modular kits for my shop.



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Charles (in GA)

03-08-2006 20:13:22




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
For the work you describe, if it is a single user shop, I would think that 3/4 runs would be fine. I do think you should have an adequate valve on the tank outlet, at least a 3/4 FULL PORT ball valve.

I have been planning for an air system for quite some time, I do have a Wilkerson regulator to control the entire system with, it has one inch pipe threads, and as I will be probably be using 3/4 I'll just have to bush it down. It was new, and cheap, so I bought it.

I considered PVC until I read the thousands of items on the internet that tell of horror stories and the state and US OSHAs that have banned it, so plan B is probably copper, doesn't matter if its type L or type M, either one is rated at way more than it needs to be. Nibco also makes Chem-Aire, an ABS type plastic pipe certified for air systems, its glue together and real slick, but actually costs as much or more than copper, just less work to install.

As far as system planning, even for a single user shop, I'd use a loop system, might eliminate unforseen problems down the road. Personally, a single system regulator seems to me better than a system with no regulator and requiring several small ones at each drop.

Charles

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MidMiGene

03-08-2006 09:50:59




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I built a 30x40 pole barn in 1997. I used 3/4 inch PVC pipe as my air lines. I made a complete loop around the building. Placed drops where I wanted them. Used galvanized pipe for the drops. ( PVC wont hold up to the twisting and pulling of connecting and disconnecting of air lines at quick couplers.) I also placed 2 shutoff valves after the tee coming out of the compressor, one going each direction around the building and another one 1/2 way around the building. the valves make it possible to shut off half the loop to work on and still have air to the other side of the building. Purpose of the loop is so there is no (end of the line) to reduce air flow. PVC will take the pressure, will not rust, and is easy to cut and install new drops or add new runs if needed. My system has been running for 9 years now, and have no problems, YET. Vey simple to install. Just cut and glue. No threading of fittings. Check and you will see that PVC is rated to 300# PSI. Try it, you will like it. Any questions, just ask, Gene

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paul

03-08-2006 15:41:42




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to MidMiGene, 03-08-2006 09:50:59  
Amazed there is always one who has to try it. Problem is, if it bursts it shatters, like a glass tube. Under 150psi. Not pretty results.

--->Paul



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Midwest redneck

03-08-2006 12:57:24




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to MidMiGene, 03-08-2006 09:50:59  
PVC line is not safe for compressed air lines. OSHA banned it for comp. air use in 1988. When it gets cold/hot the PVC weakens and explodes under pressure. when it explodes it is like shrapnel and will penetrate people.



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benny2

03-08-2006 10:06:04




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 USA PVC BANNED for use Re: Shop air system... in reply to MidMiGene, 03-08-2006 09:50:59  
OSHA banned PVC for use in any industrial instalation long ago. It is not recomened for home or farm use either. While I know there are 10000s of places it has been installed for a long time still isnt safe. A person may have a liability problem with you insurance if somthing should happen. ;((



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JMS/MN

03-08-2006 17:48:50




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 Re: USA PVC BANNED for use Re: Shop air system.. in reply to benny2, 03-08-2006 10:06:04  
Even pvc mfgrs recommend it not be used for air lines- discussion here several years ago.



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benny2

03-08-2006 09:18:02




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 If you blast you need Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  

If you need very dry air and live in a moist climate, here is how to do it.
In climates that have high humidity it is almost impossible to have dry air, most industrial applications use either refrigerated or bead dryers, both VERY expensive. But you can construct a very effective dryer yourself using common parts.
You need a air tank, the size will be dictated by your volume of use typical the bigger the better. This tank system will be best if installed in the vertical position.
Then fill 3/4 full of ROUND River gravel 3/4" to 1-1/4" the inlet should be near the 1/2 way mark with a screen. Outlet should be at the top. Drain at the bottom. This unit will remove both oil and water very effectively at a low cost. Thats it in a nut shell

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Hoosier JD

03-09-2006 13:25:17




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 Re: If you blast you need Re: Shop air system... in reply to benny2, 03-08-2006 09:18:02  
How does that work? Does all the surface area of the gravel collect the moisture? That's simple enough that I think that I could build one of those. I do some of my own sandblasting and I sometimes get into trouble with the moisture. Thanks, Mike



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benny2

03-09-2006 19:01:49




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 Here is how it Re:If you blast you need in reply to Hoosier JD, 03-09-2006 13:25:17  
The scientific principles are pretty basic. The moisture condenses just like either fog or rain forms in the atmosphere. When the dew point and the ambient temperature come near to each other you have condensation. To have fog or smog you also need a core seed for that moisture to form on hence the rocks. Any rocks would work, but the reason for ROUND smooth (river wash) is a matter of installation and the ability for the water/oil not to have a rough spot to be retained in the dehydration media (the rocks). They the rocks can also easily be cleaned in the tank with a caustic (detergent) wash.
Now the lower the temperature of the rocks the better.
So on the dehydrator tank inlet you can by fittings only you can form a auto cooling device. This is done by the inlet pipe leading to the dhyd tank be as large as possible then feeding a very small pipe into the tank this will form a Venturi effect as a carb on an engine will automatically cooling the air at that point. with a larger pipe being fitted into the tank at least 1/2 way into the tank being covered by the rocks. This will also tend to cool the rocks to further condensation.
The way this system come to be was I was asked to supply a manufacturing company that was doing a lot of glass bead blasting on their products in Portland OR which has a lot of moisture in the air all winter. The condensation of bead blasting was so bad that they could only blast for 1/2 the day. Of course they didn't have the $10000 or $20000 required to put in a full commercial system. They were using 2 40 CFMs and 1 20 CFM compressors to run their plants air system. And basically with the use of this system and a few technical enhancements not mention here were able to have zero condensation in the blasters. These units were based on 2 120 gallon tanks. Note: the bigger the stones, withen reason, the better it works.

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Richard H.

03-08-2006 06:28:35




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I just finished my shop air with 1/2 black pipe,But it dawned on me after I was done it would have probably less parts to do it with 3/4.. My quick connects are all 1/4 and I could not find 1/2 to 1/4 inch bell fittings..only 3/4 to 1/4. So if you are planning a lot of shop air outlets I would use 3/4. This did"nt dawn on me until I was cleaning up my mess and in the bottom of my moisture-filter regulator box and found a "how-to" diagram. I also used unions and ball valves for all things that may have to be serviced or replaced so the rest of the system was not interupted. Richard

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evilboweviel

03-08-2006 05:16:48




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
1.black pipe or copper
2.run all lines downhill to drops with tees for the quick connects and at least 12" drops below with valves to drain lines. DON'T slope lines back to the tank use the airflow to move moisture to drops with valves.
3.the larger the pipe and the greater quanity of pipe the more air storage capacity you end up with
4.use a good set of dies not cheap or worn dies when cutting threads and you will not have leaks every where, with you wondering what miracle sealant will stop them.
5. air regulation should be at the outlet/quick connect
6 if you feel the need for an airdryer then only pipe it into one hose connection. as they are affectted by airflow, ambient temp and psi.
I prefer copper but have run iron pipe
Good luck
Ron

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Don L C

03-07-2006 20:10:31




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I was afraid of rust and muck from the black pipe....I ran 1/2" heavy wall copper..set at 105# pressure..that is what we had at the work shop..... my shop has been up 25yrs. now no problems.....looks good to..... if I had it to do over I would have used 3/4"..... ..Don



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Rod (NH)

03-07-2006 20:09:33




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
Scott,

That link you provided is one of the better ones that I have seen on the net regarding this subject - at least IMO. A lot depends on your peak air consumption (not necessarily your peak compressor capacity). For instance, are you talking about a typical home shop that only has a single user and that mulitple drops and stations are located for convenience only and not to serve other, simultaneous users? If so, it is hard for me to see where you would need any lines greater than a nominal 3/4", unless you are talking about unusually large air flows. It is not uncommon - in fact it is quite common - for regulating valves to be at least one nominal size, and sometimes more, smaller than the main piping. A 1/2" regulating valve seems large to me for a home shop. You should be able to find out the flow capacity of the regulator. My 3/8" regulator by Watts is rated at up to 90 cfm - a rate way in excess of what I ever use, even for sandblasting from my 17cfm compressor. A similar regulator from the same company that has 1/2" ports carries a rating of up to 200 cfm. It's hard to go just by port size though - regulating valves should be selected on maximum required flow, not port size. The larger regulator will work, but it may not have as good regulation at the low end as one that is better sized for the anticipated load. BTW, each station, if you are planning on having mulitple stations, should have it's own regulator. Best practice is to place regulators as close to the end use as is practical. Your largest pressure-drop issues generally occur downstream of the wall stations where hoses and quick couplers are used. If it were me, I'd run a 3/4" header with 1/2" drops and 3/8" regulators, nothing smaller than 3/8" ID hose (except for a short leader) and a minimum of quick couplers of 3/8" body size. Any filters you add to the system should be sized for pressure drop at maximum cfm (no more than 3-5 psig) and installed upstream of the regulator(s). This is applicable for my use with a 17 cfm, 175 psig, 80 gallon compressor arrangement but it should also be satisfactory for most DIY home-shop use.

Rod

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RickL

03-07-2006 19:19:07




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I have 7hr compressor rigged into two eighty gallon tanks. I run 3/4 pipe all thru the shop with no filters or regulators. If need that I just snap couple it in at the out let used. run two 1/2 air impacts and 3/4 units tire machine ect. I put drops and valves below each quick connect for the 50 and 100ft hoses and each one this keeps it dryer then when i used to run a dryer. i also take the petcocks out of the compressoer tank bottoms and run air hose direct out if them also and use it as another air hose and this always drains the moisture at the same time. The other shop I used to have had dryer oiler and all that stuff had more troubles then. So I just eliminated them on this shop and it works alot nicer for me. ijust always oil the tool themselves and have no problems.

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Tim Casbolt

03-07-2006 19:12:54




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I also used 1/2" black pipe. More than enough volume for anything you would want. Picked up the pipe, valves, and fittings at Home Depot. Bought a cheap pipe threading kit at Harbor Freight. Only problem was finding a good thread sealant that could handle the 125 psi. The creamy teflon stuff seemed to work the best, but I can still hear it hissing, and the compressor needs to cycle about every 20 minutes.

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Phil Crome

03-08-2006 17:27:48




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to Tim Casbolt, 03-07-2006 19:12:54  
If you're having trouble with threads sealing at this relatively low pressure, you may want to examine your threads. That bargain threader may not be cutting good threads or not at the proper taper.

If your threads are good, try Megalok or Gasoila, both available at plumber's or pipe supply houses.

Regards,

Phil Crome



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Scott KY

03-07-2006 18:42:16




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 Re: Shop air system... in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:04:30  
I used 1/2 inch black pipe in my shop. Go to tptools.com. They have some diagrams for running pipe.



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