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Phase converter/compressor ,another question

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scott#2

03-04-2006 15:35:19

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Since I have to use a mag starter to start the pump, what should the coil voltage on the mag starter be, 115/120 or 208/240??. I checked the converter output and between legs their all around 220vac but if you take each one to ground, 2 are 120 and the wild (synthitic)leg is 220vac. From previous answers, the syn leg should go straight to the pump motor while the other 2 supply the coil voltage. Should I get a mag starter with 120 or 240vac coil? And while Im on the subject, why are those things so darn expensive, is there some magic in there or something? I guess I always took them for granted as most of the machines I buy have them already on them. I see new 10 hp 40 amp Square D units (including the thermal protectors) on ebay for about $75.00 while Grainger and MSC want $200 plus, oh yea and the thermal protectors ($13 each) arent included. Can you say rip off?

Thanks Again,

scott#2

After all this I guess I could just go pull the cover off one of the lathes and see whats in there. Oh well, I forgot.

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ADC

03-09-2006 18:15:14

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 15:35:19

try Johnstone Supply for lower cost starters then WWG

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benny2

03-06-2006 12:22:35

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3 P Converters on compressors dont Re:Phase conver in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 15:35:19

3 phase Converters on compressors dont work well if at all. Mostley wont start the motor at all. I think you will also find is the case and will have to change the motor to a single phase motor. I have built many phase converters and have installed some factory machines. None ever preformed. But on most any machine that has a no-load start they work well. If you do get it to start it will most likly be, if wired for 440 V 3P. using a syep up transformer. With a run motor of at least 3 to 5 times larger than the motor being run. Compressors will just blow the static units up. The wild leg is the generated leg when using 220 split phase for a power source. And it can vary wildly from site to site. Both high and low. That is why I always use a balance transformer with a multi voltage step unit to balance the voltage.

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scott#2

03-07-2006 18:16:23

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Re: 3 P Converters on compressors dont Re:Phase co in reply to benny2, 03-06-2006 12:22:35

This rotary converter is a 20 hp unit (de-rated by baldor from a 25 hp unit for 50hz canadian) and it turns this pump just fine and with no strain. It also starts and runs a 10 hp motor on a 20" leblond lathe set at the highest spindle speed. I suppose if you were trying to run a 15 horse air pump, without an unloader, it would porbably make a fuss though. So far, so good.

Thanks Benny

scott

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benny2

03-08-2006 09:53:42

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Re: 3 P Converters on compressors dont Re:Phase co in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:16:23

First if you have 50 htz you are losing motor RPM, and most all standard motors will run on any cycle just changes the RPM. Little torque loss. If your converter is working well on the compressor great, but you may have a commercial built unit with a bank of smoothing capcitors, if you have these, the continus use of high starting loads will damage them. The other thing that helps you may actualy have a full 2 phase power. You can idenify this by looking at your overhead supply (power pole) if there are 3 wires you may be hooked to 2 p power. If you have only 2 over head wires you have 1 p power, not the best. I have seen where 2 p power is used things just work better.

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scott#2

03-09-2006 17:55:59

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Re: 3 P Converters on compressors dont Re:Phase co in reply to benny2, 03-08-2006 09:53:42

Benny,

Not to beat a decaying horse to sub terranian depths but this converter rus on 220 single phase, I have never had any other power available. The 50 hz thing is nameplate only, there isnt any difference in the internals of the motor. The Baldor engineer said that they (when I read the spec# to them) will take a standard motor of higher hp and derate the motors spec plate only so it can handle the strain of being run reliably on less power and still provide the hp the customer is looking for. This particular motor cost me 65$ and runs at, if I remember correctly at 3450 rpm. Most converters I have ever built run at 1750 rpm. You get a much more powerful converter with the higher rpm motors but you have to have the electronics behind it to back it up too. REAL caps and lots of them for heat disipation, proper balancing, (2-3% under load), etc,etc,etc. This converter is much better than you can buy but I still consider it to be a hi dollar one because I have about $270 in it. I am an electronics technician by trade but am still learning about this high voltage stuff. If you want, start a new thread, I am always looking to learn about electricity and its fundamentals.

scott#2

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benny2

03-10-2006 11:00:48

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Motor rated RPMs make little Re:Phase converters in reply to scott#2, 03-09-2006 17:55:59

I know that the 50 Hz tag thing is just that a tag, no motor difference.
The speed factor of one motor rated speed suitability over another is a common misconception. Other than that of a manufacturing quark of the low speed motors of equal power, they just have to be larger rotors to accommodate the space for more stator windings, which in fact would prove to be a better power provider and esier starter. The power generated by any speed of motor will be the same as any other speed of motor if the rotor (armature) mass is the same. It is simple to say that motors with more rotor mass for the same HP rating, will be better phase generators. The rated speed of the motor has little or no effect on the production of power. 3450 rpm motors power is no better than that of a 12 pole motor. The 2 pole motor may in fact be a poorer choice as the rotor mass may be smaller and it takes more input power to maintain the RPMs with small fluctuations making a big difference in output.
You can view it as this as, there are 12 steps to the courthouse door, you can take each step one at a time or you can make it in 2 steps 6 at a time. Considering the extra amount of energy it takes to make the 6 step jump is it worth it, as the end result is the same. So if you needed to climb these steps all day long every day you would be able to climb longer and with less effort taking fewer steps each time. The difference in the synchronous and the actual run speed is what generates the power. If the motor running speed was exactly the same as the synch speed there would be no generation at all. Running speeds over the synch speed will cause the voltage to increase, speeds below the synch speed will cause the voltages to drop. That is where the balance caps come into play, to level this voltage off. I use pony motors to start the system as a less expensive alternative to starting with caps. In the long run the pony motor system also will be an easier and more reliable system to maintain.

These are the "Synchronous" Speeds for 3 phase motors (rpm) actual running speeds will be slightly less as noted by the motor tags.
Pole number
== 50 Hz 60 Hz
2 = 3000 3600

4= 1500 1800

6= 1000 1200

8= 750 900

10= 600 720

12= 500 600

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scott#2

03-10-2006 14:03:30

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Re: Motor rated RPMs make little Re:Phase converte in reply to benny2, 03-10-2006 11:00:48

Well I guess you told me. I had to read that thing 3 times before I beagan to catch half of it and on the 4th time, my eyes began to glaze over. Its quite obvious that Im not as smart as you when it comes to building these things, I usually go by trial and error and a few zaps along the way. (keeps me on my toes)

I am assuming by your post that the motor I am using is not as good as it could be? The higher the # of poles the better??? If phase converters are lousy at running air compressors, why does this one work so well and especially at turning that big 10 horse leblond? Im really confused now. Did I just get lucky or something? Is it possible that this motor has a higher pole count than other 3450 motors?

Thanks Benny,

scott#2

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benny2

03-10-2006 19:34:49

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Two pole motors are actually Re:Phase converte in reply to scott#2, 03-10-2006 14:03:30

Two pole motors are actually 3 pole motors one extra pole is offset said to cause what is known as a heavy north. With 2 pole motors they may start very hard on a dead center lock without it. All 60 Hz motors that are rated at 3450 or so, the RPMs varies slightly from make to make, are considered 2 pole. So if your motor is 3450 it has or is considered to have 2 poles. The flux tear or generator slip as it known, is only the difference of the actual run speed and the natural ("Synchronous") speed of 3600 which is only 150 rpm. When this speed fluctuates the power output fluctuates and causes cycling.
Now you just happen to have what I consider the best motor, the Baldor, for use in phase converters. To make your system run at optimum performance, there are a few things that will make this a great system. The first thing is to make sure is that the "generator motor" is running in the same direction as the air compressor motor. That the leads meaning the 1 2 3 are in parallel to each other in their respective connections. Now I am not any smarter than most any average guy I just took an interest in these units as I did accumulate many motors that I needed to find a market for. I have been at these things "converters" for nearly 35 years. And was very curious in more than just putting them together I wanted to know how they worked. There are no books out there on the theory at least not when I started with them. But I got very lucky on having a teacher about Induction generators. He may have been the originator to the whole home brew 3 phase power thing. His first one he built was in about 1951. He was an electrical engineer that worked for BPA that was on loan to the Bureau of Reclamation that was on a quest to develop inexpensive micro generating plants for farms and rural areas using the water power that fed the farms in the Columbia Basin Wa & Or. When looking into this they developed mini Hydro Plants on the farms using induction motors as generators (mostly 12 pole). Most wind towers now use this same plan and concept developed then. This was mainly before the Power was installed in much of this area. While not much came of this then, as it was scraped in 55 or so, what he learned there was put to use in the phase converters. At first he just showed me how to make them, but I wanted to know how they worked. Well the rest is just history. You now know the most basic of what I know about them. There is more tech stuff that dont really help much. But if you know the basics you can figure out systems on your own. This info is meant to be shared and not to show how clever I am. I am sure you are aware of the dangers of high value caps so not much to be said here except that one got me once and blew a large chunk out of the end of my thumb.

PS I t doesnt seem to matter how much we know about these things sometimes we get lucky with them and sometimes we dont, that the way it is with unengineered surplus parts ;((

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scott#2

03-11-2006 10:30:53

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Re: Two pole motors are actually Re:Phase converte in reply to benny2, 03-10-2006 19:34:49

Very interesting Benny, you've had quite a run at these things, I am still learning. I grew up in an electronics whirlwind. Dad was a ham since he was 12, needless to say we had our share of projects over the years. I was building tv's, tube testers, transmitters, receivers, radios, qrp rigs, you name it when I was 8. Dad used to give me small caps to play with back then and I would charge them up, take them to school and let my classmates play with them. Got thrown out of school a few times for that. I remember one day he gave me a schematic and told me to go get the parts out of the junk drawer and rob some old chassis pieces. I put the thing together and hooked a 6v battery to it and a meter long piece of wire for an antenna and he worked a guy in so. africa, morse code. I think I was about 6 then and I was hooked, totaly astounded me. He was quite a guy. Bomber sqardran commander, test pilot, saturn 5 project team leader. I sat on Dr. Werner Von Brauns knee as a kid after he defected from Germany. Knew all the astronauts, even the 3 that burned in Apollo 11. Its tough to live up to or even try to compete with the fine people of thet era, they just dont make them like that anymore. Ive always been a jack and never a master as dad was. Thank God for these forums and the Highly Intelligent and Compentent People that come visit, at times I would be lost without them.

Thanks for the info Benny, Ive printed it out and put in in the converter info file for future reference, I never knew all that about motors.

scott#2

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buickanddeere

03-07-2006 19:21:58

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Canada 50 Hz ??????????????????????????????????? in reply to scott#2, 03-07-2006 18:16:23

Everthing in Canada is 99.999% 60 cycle. Three phase is 120/208 or 347/600. There is a very small amount of 240/416 in downtown Toronto but it's rare and weird.

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scott#2

03-08-2006 03:35:28

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Re: Canada 50 Hz ????????????????????????????????? in reply to buickanddeere, 03-07-2006 19:21:58

Thats what it says on the name spec plate and thats what baldor told me. Maybe I got the wrong country but I believe he said Ca.

scott

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XRogerX

03-05-2006 13:43:12

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 15:35:19

If you put in a 230V coil you can just wire it between legs at the top of the starter without the need of a control transformer. Take power from one leg, through the first pole of the starter coil, through an overload, through the pressure switch, back through the second coil contact and back to one of the second legs at the top of the starter.

Personally, I have never seen what you all are calling the "wild leg" as every thre phase system I have worked on has had balanced voltages on every leg. Different systems in different places I guess.

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Joe(TX)

03-06-2006 10:06:37

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to XRogerX, 03-05-2006 13:43:12

XRodgerX
You will only see the wild leg if the power company used an open delta for 3 phase power.

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Richard H.

03-05-2006 09:27:02

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 15:35:19

Scott, I have followed this the last couple days and you have me wondering why you just don"t use an isolated 24 or 120 v. circuit for your contols? Then you could have a start-stop and your high limit.... Nothing to do with your high leg delta... accept turning it off.

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scott#2

03-05-2006 12:30:13

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Richard H., 03-05-2006 09:27:02

Sounds good but the area where the pump is located is about 30 feet away and there is already 3 # 8 wires out there and it would be a real pain to pull additional wires for a control ckt. I do plan to do what you suggest for the control ckt./contactor in front of the phase converter though.

scott#2

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Steve Crum

03-04-2006 16:29:19

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 15:35:19

You would do well to find a starter with a 120 volt magnet, these are the most common. Your converter is 240 volt 3 phase, each leg being 120 volts. The wild leg is 240 volts but the driven motor equallizes this as this leg produces very little amperage potential. The 120 volt magnet needs to be powered off one of the hot legs via the psi switch and not the wild leg (or you'll get a not cheap lesson as to why) and ground the other side of the magnet. The psi switch is now the switch that 'turns the starter on and off'. 3 phase is not for the faint of heart and the initial set up isn't cheap, but it's well worth the cost and trouble if your going to make any noise. Used 3 phase machinery is dirt cheap as you cannot drag it in and fire it right up on household electric. If you could, everybody would be doing it right?

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buickanddeere

03-05-2006 08:29:58

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-04-2006 16:29:19

The control voltage for the system has to be 240 not 120. Taken from the two utility live lines. This is a Delta machine without a neutral. Tieing a circuit into the chassis/ground for a neutral return is just plain bad.

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Steve Crum

03-05-2006 09:51:27

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to buickanddeere, 03-05-2006 08:29:58

Call me lucky then, this has worked for me without issue for 8 years now. Are we talking a utility supplied 3 phase or a roto-phase generated system?

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Short Round

03-06-2006 05:34:16

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-05-2006 09:51:27

Steve, maybe it would be best to check what the NEC (Nationl Electrical Code) has to say, there is a big difference between the "grounded" and the "grounding" wire. As the other poster pointed out, what happens if you loose your ground and you are in a damp area or in some water and touch the controler or any condut? YOU are now the direct path to ground for all the current the circut has to offer, think this thing thru please.

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Richard H.

03-05-2006 10:56:31

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-05-2006 09:51:27

My guess is you are lucky Steve, What if you loose the ground? The stuff is sitting there hot. Back when....I guess you could wire your house with out a neutral and it would work, not very safe but it works!

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Steve Crum

03-05-2006 11:53:19

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Richard H., 03-05-2006 10:56:31

I'm not sure where I would loose the neutral, The nature of my operation dictated that everything have a neutral and a bond. (high incidence of static from buffing, and high frequency welding operations) The way it is all set up if I loose the neutral for any of the holding coils (including the generator itself) on the machines, that machine starter would mearly drop out and the machine would shut down. On my roto-phase system, this is how it was recommended to me to wire the control circuit. Recommendations came from 2 old industrial electrtians I worked with for nearly 20 years at the dairy plant I worked at

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buickanddeere

03-05-2006 17:37:31

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-05-2006 11:53:19

We run into this all the time in the trade." but it works". Well yes I could wire the whole shop with barbed wire and dry wooden blocks for insulation. It would work fine and be "safe" but would it be right? Everything has to have a ground bond back to the service through to the ground rods, a well casing etc. Neutral conductors are still current carrying conductors, they just happen to be held at earth potential for safety's sake. You can not use a ground wire for a neutral or use a neutral for a ground wire.

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scott#2

03-04-2006 17:17:52

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-04-2006 16:29:19

Thanks Steve,

That just cleared up the last thing I was wondering about. I maufacture a lot of nice pieces parts in the machine shop but when it comes to electrical stuff, Im pretty much an idiot and have had my share of scrapes (or shocks) with electricity, the worst being knocked out cold by 408 (so he told me) at a scrap yard. I just got this new converter to add capacity to the shop. Most everything in there is 3 phase and this new converter will turn a vmc that I just purchased, supposedly its balanced to 2 percent at load. I really love the 3 phase gear, just wish I knew more about the electrical end of it and how it actually runs. The electrician who used to help me wire up has taken to drinking heavily and is of little assistance now, even for good money. Nice guy, sad story.

Thanks Again.

scott#2

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Steve Crum

03-04-2006 17:52:22

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 17:17:52

One thing I might add (likely to your confusion), The running circuit (240 single phase line feed in) of your roto-phase would do well to be on a magnetic starter as well. This being that if your electric power is as unstable as mine, you have occasional power blips. If the roto-phase is running, and the power blips, the roto will try to restart while it's already running and will likely blow out most of the capacitor banks. If it's on a magnetic starter and the power blips, the starter drops out and the roto shuts down until you restart it. None the worse for wear.
I took this as advice on my installation. This has happened a couple times to me, at least I didn't learn that one the hard way. A 3 phase distribution breaker panel with honest to gosh 3 phase breakers (magnetically tied) is an absolute must. I put in a GE loadmark plus panel (main lug type) for distribution. You may want to be sitting down when you talk prices. Fleabay is a decent source for breakers. Like I said, "upfront it ain't cheap" but it will pay in the long run.
I can email a couple pictures if you want.

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scott#2

03-04-2006 18:02:44

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to Steve Crum, 03-04-2006 17:52:22

Steve,

Yep Ill take those pictures and you know I have a mag starter on the smaller converters and it didnt even dawn on me to mag protect this new hi dollar one. THANK YOU!!! Guess thats what happens when sparky goes off the deep end. Last time I bought a 3p panel and breakers for the old shop I believe I spent around $1000 and didnt get that many breakers, maybe 10 or 12, probably 10 years ago. I would assume it would be a little more these days. Please send those pic on at your leisure. [email protected]

Thank You Steve,

scott#2

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03-04-2006 21:51:26

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 18:02:44

Try Fox Electric for your 3 phase stuff. I bought a GE 200 amp 3 phase 42 space breaker box w/ main breaker box for $399 new. It was 1/2 the cost that a buddy electrician could get it for locally.

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03-04-2006 21:52:20

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to e, 03-04-2006 21:51:26

For some reason, my link didn't show up. Try www.foxelectricsupply.com

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steveormary

03-04-2006 20:22:23

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Re: Phase converter/compressor ,another question in reply to scott#2, 03-04-2006 18:02:44

3 phase is not for the faint of heart???!!!

Neither is single phase. Just be careful.

steveormary

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