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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

High freq grounding

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Steve Crum

02-25-2006 17:16:52




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I need some thoughts from some of you educated electrical types.
I'm finally in process of installing my new CNC plasma cutting table. This being all computer driven from a PC, the table manufacturer expressed concern that I will be using a Thermo Dynamics XL-100 system that initiates by high frequency discharge. When I constructed the building this is enclosed in, I had this in mind, plus the construction being fire retardant. The building is completely lined with 28 gage steel siding and the main drive computers are located in a separate control room which is also steel lined. While boring holes in the concrete floor for wall studs, I bored a separate hole to drive a 6' ground rod down thru the substrate into the clay under the building, the steel lining and plasma table itself will be bonded to this earth ground. Will the steel lining and earth ground be sufficent to protect the computers?

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Fred Martin

02-27-2006 13:14:21




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Steve Crum, 02-25-2006 17:16:52  
In my ham radio learning...you should not put a ground rod closer than 2 feet from the outside of the building foundation because it gets too dry closer or under it. The best ground has to have some moisture in it. Fred OH



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Kevin Bismark

02-27-2006 18:17:42




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Fred Martin, 02-27-2006 13:14:21  
Well, I try to stay further away than that, usually close to 6 feet, in a condition where the ground rod will try to carry current, it moves into the ground in concentric circules and the closer it is to something like that the less effective it is, I have an HF vertical mounted at ground level on a piece of 1,1/2 pipe 8 feet long driven into the ground, and a couple feet from that a 6 foot rod into a real wet area in the yard, you dig down it it is always wet there, put a gound rod test on it and it was 1.5 ohms. At least, I have something to try and tie to ground on in this house, had to get real creative in some of the places I lived before, after I figured out how to hide the antennas. Been an electrican for years and you should see some of the grounding systems we put in some places, 3 ground rods, 12 feet apart in a triangle, really long, ground rings, ufer grounds, when they really want a good ground and want to spend the money to do it you would be amazed what is done to do it sometimes.
Kevin

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Fred Martin

02-28-2006 14:05:50




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Kevin Bismark, 02-27-2006 18:17:42  
I tried one of those ground mount antennas once (Butternut all bander)...drove the pipe in the ground as you did...went in to the shack and cq"ed and a fellow from Hawaii came back to me. I left it alone. Moved out here in the country and mowed with the Ferguson-20 and finish mower and I had mounted a buggy top on the Fergy and snagged it on a rope guide and broke the Butternut. I retired it. When snow was on it changed the resonant frequencies somewhat...otherwise good antenna. I bought another one just haven"t put it up yet. Fred OH KE8SS

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Kevin Bismark

03-03-2006 18:45:16




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Fred Martin, 02-28-2006 14:05:50  
I think that is the same antenna I have here, when I put it up, all in one piece, had the electrical service to the house still in the old location the power company had not been out to hook up the new service so I got my hot gloves out of the truck and put it up, that is something to handle when you are less than 10 feet from the 40 year old service drop to the house, I didn't think it would work that good on 40 and 20 meters, some times there isin't much difference in the signals with the G5RV.

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Fred Martin

03-04-2006 04:47:47




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Kevin Bismark, 03-03-2006 18:45:16  
I went to the local hospital once to check on a friend who was putting up an 11 meter ground plane for someone....and he got it over into the power lines. He (thankfully) made it through this but he showed me where he had change and such in his pockets and there was arc burns where the high voltage had run through it.....and a blown out portion of his heel that was bigger than a silver dollar and two or three times deeper. Very lucky! Fred OH

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Eddie G

02-26-2006 06:47:17




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Steve Crum, 02-25-2006 17:16:52  
Depends what equipment nameplate or install manual recomends. For high freq grounding DO NOT tie to building ground I have seen buildings set on fire from this type of install. You will need a rod OHM meter yes I have one, sorry cant borrow it. Most spec 2-4 OHMS of res. I drive 10'x 3/4 rod and test. If spec is not met I will I add another rod coupled on top and keep going . To drive rods I use elec jackhammer and cupdriver. It may take a day to complete. All you need is a # 6 ground wire. In the state of Minnesota you need special permison for this install. Most installs require 30' of rod, depends what type of soil you have. hope this helps. Im allowed to insall rods right next to machine, not outside . Good luck. Eddie G Master Electrican and shop owner.

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KEB

02-25-2006 19:26:15




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Steve Crum, 02-25-2006 17:16:52  
To begin with, a 6 ft ground rod will do absolutely nothing for high frequency discharges; the impedance of a single rod and the wire connecting to it is way to high to have any effect above a few 1000 Hz. If you're concerned about noise coupling into the computers, there are two ways to go about it.

The first, which is probably easiest in your situation, is to make sure all the metal panels are electrically bonded to each other, to the building structure, and to the incoming power ground to create a low impedance return path for any noise currents. This approach is typically referred to as an "equipotential plane". The second approach is to ensure that there are no electrical paths between the noise source and the computers except at a single ground point connected to the building safety ground; the so-called "single point grounding system". Single point grounds have pretty much fallen out of vogue these days because unless you use fiber optic interconnects or transformer isolated data busses, you end up with a bunch of ground loops.

Make sure you have good power line filters on the computers. The "EMI" filters in most commercial computer power supplies are junk. Buy a good quality line filter (not one of these things you get from Walmart) and make sure its well bonded to the building steel.

Make sure any ground rod you add is bonded to the bulding safety ground with a conductor capable of carrying fault currents from whatever equipment you're connecting to the rod. This is a national electrical code requirement to avoid creating a hazardous fault condition by having two ground connections at different potentials.

I've spent most of my career dealing with these kinds of interference issues in communications facilities, spacecraft, and aircraft. Most people tend to think of EMI control as a black art, but in reality its just a somewhat unique application of physics.

Good luck,

Keith

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Kevin Bismark

02-25-2006 19:40:43




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to KEB, 02-25-2006 19:26:15  
I have to agree with you, trying to get a "good" ground for my HF transmitters has been a problem with the soil conditions here, had to get creative and keep the wires as short as possible, I finally got it so that with bad antenna conditions I don't get bit off of my antenna tuner running 1,500 watts, a little harder than dealing with grounding bonding issues in normal buildings, don't know how much power that machine runs but once you get into the hf or higher spectrum the whole thing changes, some folks wouldn't believe it but depending on the frequency and the grounding system it may not work at all at frequency being used..
Kevin

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Steve Crum

02-26-2006 05:06:10




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 Re: High freq grounding in reply to Kevin Bismark, 02-25-2006 19:40:43  
Thanks for the replys, I'm not sure that there will be a problem, but I'm trying to address issues like this during the final construction stages while things are still relatively easy to get to.
Bonding the steel to the incoming ground is no problem, nor is bonding the table. I'll still put a ground rod in, mainly because it will be under the bench in the control room and it won't be able to go in once construction is done.
What are the dangers of attaching the bonding bar in the sub panel to this rod while still attached the the incoming power ground? I know the power co won't allow the meter base to be bonded to earth ground, but requires the entrance panel to be bonded the earth ground. I should note that this building is served by a 100 amp sub line from the main shop building 200 amp panel and is breakered at 100 amp at the main panel. There is no 4th wire from the main to the sub panel for bonding.

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