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pad under pole barn

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dcop

02-13-2006 21:34:50




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I need a good solid pad under a pole barn I am about to build. I would like concrete but just can't afford it. A few years ago I heard of a guy tilling sackcrete into the ground under his carport. He then used a compactor to pack it, after he wet it down real good. I was told it was hard as a rock and still there. Has anyone heard of this.




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Pitalplace

02-15-2006 15:52:47




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Check with your Cement plant, I bought a semi load of crushed concrete for less than $5 a yard and it works very well in the back of my building. I then put a cement floor in the front part to work on



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Leland

02-14-2006 21:32:42




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
They use soil cement around here mainly to make the base for roads firmer lots of peat but they really lay it down with a truck like a lime sprteader then till it in about a foot deep water then mash it down tight .



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Richard Scott

02-14-2006 17:42:04




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Shop around for a concrete contractor. I talked to about 15 contractors & had bids ranging from $2600 to $5500 for 4" over 1150 sq. ft. The one I went with included adding fiberglass to the mix for strength, put in strips (I have fogotten what they are called) to control cracking & sealed it & did the job for $2,700. You will also get lots of opinions on whether or not to use the strips or add the fiberglass or whatever & you'll learn a lot about the concrete business.

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Midwest redneck

02-14-2006 13:54:47




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Many years ago my mother in laws best friend bought 100 bags of quikrete and spread it out on their gravel driveway and then watered it in with a hose, tough as nails as I am told. I have not seen it. I would do what you are describing, but I would use several yards of pea stone and then mix the sackrete with it. Dont know if it will work or not.



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Obie

02-14-2006 09:03:39




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
What about black top would that cost less than concrete? Just a thought..



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old dude

02-14-2006 09:02:59




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
round here we call it bug dust. fines and screenings from the lime stone quarries. tamp in layers with a vibratory compactor adding a little water as you go. not as good as concrete but makes a darn good floor and its cheap!



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Butch(OH)

02-14-2006 07:01:52




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Mark B has it right, called soil cement and dont use sackcrete use portland cement



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Billy NY

02-14-2006 06:43:33




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
I've done this with portland cement and crusher run stone, I can't recall how much portland to the stone I mixed, probably used less than in a typical mortar mix, but strong enough to make a bond. Held up well, but I was not running my crawler on it or anything real heavy. Make a small 1-2 yd pile of crusher run with the various size stone and stone dust, like is used for paving sub-base and or driveways, round stone aggregate may not perforem as well, add the portland, use front end loader to turn and mix it in, then place/grade off, either add water after or while mixing up, do not use a lot of water, just enough to make a dry paste, enough to moisten, not enough to squeeze out, then compact etc. If you ever set a fence post with dry concrete mix then just wet from above, the results are similar. You can do this in a variety of different ways, but I would think the more portland to crusher run ratio ( to a point ) the better the bond you will get. A key ratio in concrete is the water to cementitous material,( portland ) too much water, strength drops significantly. Have also done this on a driveway, just on the surface, after scarifying, to loosen up the surface and them mix in, to stiffen up the wear surface for a few inches. You have to use enough portland then mix it in uniformly.

You should crunch some numbers to see how much material you need and what it will cost to make. Then compare it to the cost of concrete, obviously the concrete will perform much better under heavy equipment weight or similar loading. If you add too much water, don't have a way to mix it uniformly and or do this haphazardly, it's a waste of time and money, if a cold climate area, don't let it freeze, it can be an inefficient material to make at home, a concrete mix like sackrete is a ready mix concrete mixture with portland cement mixed in at a certain ratio to make it a certain strength, so it has much less portland cement per bag. Using 100% portland by the bag, to make this soil cement material, and using similar proportional quantities per volume of crushed stone as used to make concrete is going to make the soil cement much stronger than using a bagged conrete like sackrete. It's not to say you can't make a strong soil cement, but you'll need help to get the results you are looking for. See if you can get your hands on a typical 3000 P.S.I. concrete mix design from a local plant. The mix design sheet shows quantities of material per a certain volume, look for portland ( probably in pounds so convert ). Contractors are required to submit this design mix information for approval, for state and D.O.T. jobs, so a supplier should have something on hand, readily available for a state approved mix or standard mix, and should be happy to provide it to you. Also ask what their aggregate is, you may be using the same material. Figure out how much portland is used per cubic yard of concrete in their mix, then figure how many cubic yards of soil cement you need, then include the cost of the amount of portland you'll need to make a seemingly strong soil cement. You can use the amount of portland put into the actual concrete mix by the cubic yard, and then reduce it by say 25%-50% for your soil mix. Then compare the costs by cubic yard for each. You will need to purchase the crusher run or similar material, portland cement, have to mix it, add water, place, grade and compact. When doing the math, keep units of measure alike, remember 27 cubic feet = 1 cubic yard. Take square footage areas and multiply by the thickness, if under 1 foot, take the inches divide by 12 ( 12" = 1 foot ) that is you decimal equivalent and multiply by your square footage to get the volume. This is simple math and an interesting exercise, do the math and let us know, how it compares price wise, if not a substantial savings, I'd save up for some concrete.

Hopefully I have not confused you, (I'm notorious for 1 long post per day lately ! ) the idea is good, but the bottom line, is how much will you save and how much service life will you get for what you spend, if it's not a substantial savings, it may not be worth it. If it is a large area this is especially true due to quantities involved, but something smaller like a 2 car garage size area may be more feasible to do this, say until you can afford what you really want, something is better than nothing, but at what expense. Also, you can do a "mock-up" make a small mix quantity, place it, then test to see how it perfroms, doing a small area and monitoring how it works will provide a lot of answers up front, before you spend a lot of money. You can make adjustments in your mix until you get the results you want or prove it to be a waste of time, just on a smaller scale. Ok enough, out of me.... LOL !

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buckva

02-14-2006 18:40:20




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to Billy NY, 02-14-2006 06:43:33  

This man has the 100 per cent on soil cement so listen to him. A little more possible help here is the use your regular garden tiller to mix in the portland. When you hae your crusher run placed use the tiller too till it just as a garder with emphasis place on making sure that you can easily till the top 3 to 6 inches. Now spread 3 bags of portland for each cubic yard or two tons of crusher run that your are workin with.Till the portlan into the crusher run. one good pass shold do the trick, Use a tamper to smooth it out or a little more water and bull float. If you want it evem smoother then all some sand and more portlan. Sorry this method does not lend itself to reinforcement.

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Billy NY

02-14-2006 19:06:35




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to buckva, 02-14-2006 18:40:20  
I like the tiller method, after thinking about this, you could place and grade the pad using the crusher run or what is available, I like the crusher run as the material is rough, broken, sharp edges, I would think it bonds better. Then till the entire area, sprinkle a uniform amount of portland on it, till again then compact, if finish grade is important, best to leave it high then compact the heck out of it or shave some off, might be hard to control the grade. I forget how deep my Troy Bilt tills but you could take that depth, x square area, figure volume like mentioned above and arrive at a number to provide some guidance as to how much portland to use, say compared to what is used in a design mix, 3 bags per cubic yard sounds strong, if you use too little the bond is weak.

This does sound economical, spreading and tilling will be the cost effective way to do it, also the alternative by product materials seem worth checking out, you might find a savings here, over concrete, service life is key to the equation. Only thing is the area needs to be well drained if in a frost climate, not sure how this holds up if frost gets under it.

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butch seals

02-14-2006 06:34:13




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Go to a quarry and get lime screenings (waste) spread it out and hose it down, It will pack as good a concrete and is really cheap.



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Bus Driver

02-14-2006 04:08:59




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Do some very careful math before deciding on the Sackcrete. The plan you are considering is the highest cost and poorest quality.



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MarkB_MI

02-14-2006 03:32:39




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
Google on "soil cement".

I haven't tried it, but I believe the results are dependent on what kind of dirt you have to work with.

You should really plan on a good concrete floor, though. You won't regret it later.



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Stan in Oly, WA

02-13-2006 22:28:29




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-13-2006 21:34:50  
If you can't afford concrete, sackrete would be an unusual way to economize. Sackrete is a way to pay around $100 a yard for a four sack mix. When you order reddi-mix delivered in a concrete truck you get a five sack mix unless you specify something else. This means that each yard of concrete contains five 94lb sacks of cement. A 94lb sack is 1 cubic foot of cement. Sackrete is such a poor quality mix that I estimate it to be equivalent to a four sack mix, four 94lb sacks of cement per yard. I never use sackrete without calculating (read guessing)the amount of cement necessary to add another 25%.

I don't have any information about the quality of floor you would get by doing what you describe. Clay degrades the quality of concrete drastically, but I wouldn't want to speculate on what that might mean in your situation. What I do know is that you can do what you propose by buying bulk sand and gravel and bags of Portland cement and making your own mix for a fraction of the cost of sackrete.

All the best, Stan

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JD9295

02-14-2006 04:41:38




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 02-13-2006 22:28:29  
If you have a quarry around call and get a price on their chips with heavy lime. We use that alot here and if you level it and pack it (doesnt have to be hammer packed) then wet it it will get hard and give you a good surface.
We pay .50 cents a tone for it, about .75 if we have it hauled.
Its a good cheap floor



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dcop

02-14-2006 22:12:25




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to JD9295, 02-14-2006 04:41:38  
Thanks for all of the help. I think I am going to to try to use the portland and crusher run. It should work for what I am needing. This is just a 20 by 30 barn to keep my junk dry and me away from the wife.



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Larry NE IL

02-15-2006 08:11:36




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to dcop, 02-14-2006 22:12:25  
Another option is to find a road builder in your area and ask for grindings. When they pave an asphalt road they usually grind first. Some of that is used to re-mix asphalt but they usually have more than enough and if your haul is shorter, you may get it for free.



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guess who

02-14-2006 22:02:53




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to JD9295, 02-14-2006 04:41:38  
50 cents a ton sounds too good to be true. 10 ton would cost 5 dollars. Or 7.50 for ten ton delivered. If I could get material delivered at that price I would sell my truck today.



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JD9295

02-15-2006 14:22:28




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 Re: pad under pole barn in reply to guess who, 02-14-2006 22:02:53  
.50 is for the lime only, we haul it ourselves. If we have someone else haul it it does cost more(haulage) but 9 of 10 loads we get ourselves



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