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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Need Help From Machinists!!!

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someone used my

02-08-2006 18:58:34




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Hey Y'all,
I teach part-time at the local community college (machine tool technology), & we've recently experienced a crisis... seems a number of our lathes have been plotting against us & decided to give it up at the same time. I just can't understand it... some of them are only 60 (or so) years old (couple of old southbends), some of them are 60's & 70's vintage Clausings, Summits, etc... a few are relatively new chinese JUNK... but most have thrown in the towel! The bottom line is that we're going in for some emergency funding & stand a reasonable chance of getting some $$$, but need to get some ideas on WHICH machines to buy should we get funded. At mt day job, we primarily use cnc's and I haven't been around any other shops (with manual equipment) enough to know what's worth buying. I vaguely remember a recent thread concerning the Clausings (Colchester, Metosa, & others???) but didn't pay much attention because I didn't think we'd be in the market so soon... we're also considering Summit. For now, we're looking at 14 x 40 machines. I know you guys know which machines can "cut the mustard"... any and all comments WELCOME!!! TIA
Best Regards, DL

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Tim Brake

02-13-2006 10:05:02




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
Govt Surplus is a good idea. But you need to do some reasearch. What you find on sites like www.govliquidation.com or gsaauctions.gov is the left-overs. Its the stuff that nobody else wants. Because before any surplus is sold to the General Public groups like other Govt. agencies, nonprofit groups, museums, schools...etc. get first pick usually for free. The trick is getting on this list. Now that being said, I have no clue how to get on this list. I would start at Link This is a govt auction site and I'm sure has links to the General Services Administration better known as the GSA. Hope this helps.

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John Garner

02-10-2006 11:49:59




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 Decent Machines at Decent Prices . . . in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
DL --

Mankind figured out how to make good machinery a long time ago, and there's no one area of the world that has a lock on the technology. But there IS a difference between knowing how to make a decent machine and actually making one.

The US, Western European, and Japanese makers know how to make good machinery, but their cost structures pretty much priced them out of the market for manual machines, while the Chinese and Indians seem to combine their fundamental cost advantages with slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am production to corner the market for lowest-possible-price machines. That leaves Eastern European, South American, Korean, and Taiwanese makers in the middle, producers of decent machines at decent prices.

If I was wearing your shoes, I'd start by looking at machines imported from Taiwan or Korea by the major importers: Jet, Grizzly, and Birmingham.

John

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MikeCatthemuseum

02-10-2006 16:38:28




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 Re: Decent Machines at Decent Prices . . . in reply to John Garner, 02-10-2006 11:49:59  
Great idea, but all the makes you listed are Chinese. You get the same lathe with a different name and white, gray or green paint, depending on which one you buy. Jet, Witon, and Powermatic are the same comapany and are all made in China now. Grizzly is definitely Chinese and not very high up on my list to say the least. Pretty sure (like 99.999%) that Birmingham is just another paint color choice on either of the other two.

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John Garner

02-11-2006 17:29:28




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 Back to Mike C in reply to MikeCatthemuseum, 02-10-2006 16:38:28  
Mike C --

The three importers I mentioned do bring in their cheapest machines from the PRC, but they also offer higher-grade machines from Taiwan.

The Taiwan-made lathes are, in my opion, decent machines at decent prices.

John



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MikeCatthemuseum

02-11-2006 20:22:33




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 Re: Back to Mike C in reply to John Garner, 02-11-2006 17:29:28  
I have never seen a Birmingham, but I have NEVER seen a Grizzly made in Taiwan. Please go to this page:
Link

Similarly, the Wilton drill press I bought recently for our shop was reportedly a Taiwanese machine and double hte price of the supposed Chinese ones. When it was unpacked, there was the MADE IN CHINA label on the side.

I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that upon unpacking ANY of the products sold by these manufacturers, you will find a "Made in China" label on the side.

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Butch(OH)

02-10-2006 17:39:51




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 Re: Decent Machines at Decent Prices . . . in reply to MikeCatthemuseum, 02-10-2006 16:38:28  
Some of the Tiawan made stuff isnt too bad for quality but the big problem I have with them is the lack of a clutched headstock. Starting and stopping the chuck rotation with the motor switch is OK for turning parts but put those engine lathes in a repair shop where we are matching threads, threading to a shoulder, metric etc and you will soon see the value in a clutch.



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rhouston

02-09-2006 12:47:46




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
Here are two links to used machines. One is a local guy (I have no vested interest in them I just know they exist.


The URL link is for a list of used machinery dealers.

This is the local guy I know of.
www.mckeanmachinery.com

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Bun in NC

02-09-2006 04:03:15




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
About 15 years ago I set up & ran the clean machine shop in a nuclear power plant. Had a pair of real nice looking South Bend lathes - one in the clean shop & one in the "hot" shop. Problem is they were made in Spain - in less than 5 years of only moderate use both had to be replaced. I still love the old SBs but from my experiences the newer non-American built ones seem to be juke.



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midwest redneck

02-09-2006 01:54:50




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
The Clausing Metosa is made in Spain and the Clausing Colcheste is made in USA. The Colchesters are not cheap, the 13-40 is $10,700 but very good, 3HP or so. 220vac 3phase. Summit makes a good machine too from what I have read.



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someone used my name

02-08-2006 20:54:05




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
Hey Y'all...
Thanks for the QUICK replies!!! I'll try to address some of your comments... While we teach all levels of machining, the majority of our students attend the basic course... whether it's non-traditional students attending at night who just want to learn enough to make a few parts, or the full-time students who take our course as an elective credit for a different technical degree, these "newbies" generally don't have the desire, skill or ability to re-build our machines. And then, there's the time issue...
Years ago, we did rebuild the gear box on one of the old South Bends... someone crashed it and wiped out several gears... couldn't get replacements so we recovered enough fragments to figure out what we needed & cut our own. Actually got it back running... pretty cool, but took lots of time! Anyways, we still have a couple of those machines around... we're a bit concerned about the safety/liability issue with new students... they're not exactly "user friendly" We also have an old Cincinnatti, an old Colchester, and an old American Pacemaker. All three are good old machines (I'm relatively certain they all came from US govt surplus (Navy?))... but, being 40 - 50 years old, they all have their quirks. I can produce parts on 'em all day long, but it's a real challenge to get someone who's never even seen a lathe up to speed & making parts in 16 weeks. We also have 3 Clausings and 3 Summits (18 x 80) from the 60's, but between the wear and the size (intimidating for some)... it's a challenge. We have 3 South Bend lathes that are about 10 years old... probably the most dependable & trouble-free machines in the shop... pretty sure they came from Taiwan... wish we had 10 more! The full-time instructor bought 3 Sharp lathes (chinese junk!!!) about 2 1/2 years ago & only 1 of them will even run (barely). Spindle bearings just went out on one... a drive gear bound up on the other... exited the case with a loud bang! The older machines are basically good, but are extremely worn... need to be completely disassembled & have worn parts replaced.
My problem is that the full time instructor is not in the best of health & probably won't attempt to repair any of these machines... and I just don't have the time. I work full time at a shop, have to take care of our place (and my tractors), and, most importantly, wouldn't be paid for any time I invested in this effort. Although I would like to rescue all of those old machines, I don't see me spending the summer up there, elbow-deep in grease!
I guess we're leaning toward the Summit 14 x 40 lathes... at least they don't come from China. We have some machine accessories at work that came out of Poland and the Baltics... the quality is actually very good. Hope the machinery is as good.
My thanks to all! I'll let ya know how it all shakes out!
Best Regards, DL

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Ryan - WI

02-08-2006 20:22:35




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
When I was in college (about 4 years ago) I worked in the Metals lab. We had some new DoAlls that were really pretty nice. I preferred them over the old sheldons, and clausings.



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NC Wayne

02-08-2006 20:13:18




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
I'm like Mike, unless the "giving up" was a matter of the whole geartrain stripping off, etc why not repair the machines you have. Like he said the knowledge to do this with the older machine is a dying art that needs to be carried on somehow. As for buying a used machine we've got an 18x60 Cincinatti Hydrashift that Dad bought, used, over 15 years ago. While I wouldn't expect anyone off the street to come in and turn an accurate part once you get used to it's quirks it's dead on. We often thread with it also and have never had a problem with it in that respect. Check out the Government Liquidation site, they alway have some good used equipment on there. Not to long ago they had a huge vertical mill for sale. I never did see the final price but I for what most items on there go for I know somebody got a steal. Here's a link to that site.

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Davis In SC

02-08-2006 20:10:09




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
Sad to say, but there are no decent lathes being built now... Hardinge just stopped building the 11 inch HLV, but they were around 50 grand, way too pricy for students... I agree on trying to get some lathes through your state Tech School System... Belt drive lathes (South Bend) are the best ones for students to learn on, since the belts will slip... I was a student many years ago, LOL The old SouthBends are easy to fix,& once fixed, should outlast the Chinese ones.... I am glad to see machining still being taught... Best of luck...

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Butch(OH)

02-08-2006 19:37:40




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
You didnt say new or not but I bought a new Summit rated 16x60 (swings 19) about 7 years ago and it has been a very good lathe. I have looked at the 14x40s and they look like good machines also. I feel they are the best buy on the market and the one small problem I had Summit was great to work with. Not USA made but not slant eye either, Made in Bulgaria.

My 16x60 with a 5 1/4 bore sleeved rigged in the steady for boring.

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MikeCatthemuseum

02-08-2006 19:34:20




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 Re: Need Help From Machinists!!! in reply to someone used my name, 02-08-2006 18:58:34  
Are you going to be forced to buy new? If so, I think you'll probably end up with sorry Chinese machines as that is about all there is available these days. If you can buy used, you could have a field day at a machinery auction.

I would also try to get into the Govt Surplus Property system. You might pick up a surplus and like-new Pacemaker, L&S, Harrison, Monarch EE, etc... for a few hundred bucks if it is going to a school. Our museum takes advantage of this on occasion.

The other option is to have those machines repaired. You say they quit? What stopped them? Lathes are not very complicated devices. Motors are cheap. Bearings can be replaced, gears can be replaced or repaired. Perhaps a machinery rebuild course could be established? Everybody makes out. I would love to find a rebuild class rather than try the technique of buying Connelly's rebuild and reconditioning book and figuring it out myself. True rebuilding is one of those very, VERY rare skills.

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