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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation

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Ron in Nebr

02-06-2006 22:07:21




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Always lots of good advice here, so thought I'd ask this. I'm in the process of insulating an existing metal building to use as a shop. Put tin on the inside and I'm insulating it. Building is a metal Morton building approx. 24x36, around 900 square feet. This question is about the blow-in insulation I'm using in the ceiling. I screwed the ceiling tin to the metal roof beams. Not sure of the pitch of the roof(I'm a mechanic, not a carpenter), but the side walls are 10ft high and the peak of the roof is 12ft. I started out from the walls with the tin(3ftx12ft sheets) and went half way to the peak on each side(two peices out from the walls the entire length of the wall). So the existing ceiling before I started blowing in insulation is 6ft from the walls and 10in deep(10 inches between ceiling and roof). Filled that up then was planning on adding the rest of the tin up to the center peak of the ceiling and then blowing that full.

Question is- the place I bought the insulation from estimated I'd need 23 bags of blow-in insulation to do the whole thing, and I completely filled half of each side with 5 1/2 bags. I just blew it in as complete as I could and let the power of the blower pack it in there. It's pretty fluffy. Should I use something and pack the blow-in insulation in tighter so I can get more in there or am I better off leaving it kinda loose? Always heard it shouldn't be too tight so there's some airspace around it.

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Nate in IA.

02-10-2006 02:05:04




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
Done this for years in metal frame buildings. Blow the ceiling full, it will settle over a few months. My concern is you said Morton. The only morton building I know of is wood frame. This will affect your snow load. If you have a red frame metal building, e-mail me and I'll give you some more info on what to look for. The sidewalls will settle over time also.



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Ron in Nebr

02-10-2006 13:54:23




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Nate in IA., 02-10-2006 02:05:04  
Thanks Nate. Pretty sure it's Morton. Yep, it's all red steel frame. No wood in the original structure at all. I did frame in the sidewalls with some wood to hang the tin there. Sidewalls have roll insulation, not blown in, so hopefully there won't be any settling to deal with there.



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jerry watkins

02-08-2006 10:26:00




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
My concerin is was the metal building engineered for this additional weight.. That of the metal inner liner and the insluation. Most if not all of the farm type building are 12/20 or so and if you get a big snow..8 in or so you may need to get it off that building quick.



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IA Roy

02-07-2006 19:15:26




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
I am not sure about fiberglass blow in, but with cellulose fiber, the air on the blower is not supposed to open over about 1/2. Check with the blower owner to see if it should be set different. If you use too much air it will be over fluffy and will settle later.



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Ron in Nebr

02-07-2006 19:53:30




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to IA Roy, 02-07-2006 19:15:26  
The guy I got the blower from(same place I bought the insulation) didn't mention anything about an air adjustment when he was showing me how to use it. Only a sliding aluminum plate that opens up the bottom of the "hopper" to the blower mechanism. Is this what you mean? I had that plate pulled open all the way. Any less and it'd appear that it'd be blowing less insulation and more air?



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old

02-07-2006 07:03:41




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
Can't help much but I can say you don't want to pack it in at all. The more you pack it the less insulation factor you will have. For insulation to work as it should it needs to be loose and have air pockets. If you even look at the fiber glass bats it say something about not packing it in to tight



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Can't even use my name

02-07-2006 04:59:02




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
I think you may have to have some room between the insulation and the roof for air flow. This also means you will need a vented soffit to allow the air into that space. If not I would think you will end up with moisture problems. Insulation is more effective if lightly placed so there is air inside it.



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Slowpoke

02-07-2006 01:24:27




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
If the building is 24' wide you have about a 2 in 12 pitch. For every foot of run (up the roof), you have 2" of rise. 12'-10'=2'=24".



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Stan in Oly, WA

02-07-2006 00:09:17




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-06-2006 22:07:21  
Hi, Ron

If my math is right, you've got 6'2" more ceiling metal to put up on each side. That means it will take a little more than 5 1/2 more bags to finish, a bit over 11 bags total, or about 1/2 what the supplier estimated. My guess is that they accidentally doubled the amount when making the computation. It's easy to do when making a computation that involves doubling a measurement (the two sides of the roof.) I do it all the time even though I'm good with math and careful, too. It happens when you think the problem is simple enough that you don't have to write down the measurements before entering them in your calculator.

The blow-in insulation isn't meant to be compressed. Take back 11 bags instead.

Stan

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Ron in Nebr

02-07-2006 07:50:42




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Stan in Oly, WA, 02-07-2006 00:09:17  
Thanks Stan and everyone else for your replies too! I vaguely remembered reading someplace that it needed to be loose, but thought I'd ask.

I'm sure it'll settle some and kind of "pack itself" a little just due to the pitch of the roof.

As for the need for airspace above the insulation like someone mentioned- how vital is this? Not too sure how I'd accomplish that due to the slope of the ceiling? Seems if I tried to not fill the space clear to the top that eventually gravity would allow the insulation to settle more towards the outer walls leaving little or none up towards the peak? In the steel of the roof there's ribs about 2" or so high every foot or so(standard steel building tin). Before I started blowing insulation in I could see daylight at the walls in alot of the ribs. Haven't tried to get enough insulation in that the ribs themselves are packed full so maybe these will allow enough airflow over the insulation?

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JoeK

02-08-2006 13:08:49




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-07-2006 07:50:42  
You need "airflow" over the insulation to carry condensation away to ventilated"attic"where it can escape outside.Without such,moisture will condense,dripping through the ceiling and/or soaking the trusses and purlins causing them to rot out.Normally intake vents would be at soffit between each truss and exhaust at peak or gable ends allowing natural airflow.Lightweight foam baffles are stapled in place to create an airspace before insulating.In effect you are creating a "cathedral ceiling" which are notorious for insulation and airflow problems.Too little airflow/venting is very detrimental to building,Too much is impossible.This is one of those jobs where,in my opinion,pro advice in advance would have been greatly beneficial and your best bet at this point would be start over,rather than continue a bad procedure.I am an ex-pro in commercial weatherization.

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Ron in Nebr

02-08-2006 21:35:08




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to JoeK, 02-08-2006 13:08:49  
The guy I talked to that advised me to put the tin up and then blow in the insulation was our local dealer for Morton buildings. Figured he was an expert. We have a similar building here with plastic covered roll insulation under the roof(between the roof and the beams)- no tin ceiling- and there's never any moisture in there...does the tin under the insulation make the difference? We're in a pretty dry climate here.....

What would be the best way to take 600sq foot of blown in insulation out and "start over"? Just take the tin down and use a scoop shovel to clean up the mess?

A couple other questions- how are those vents stapled up when you have a steel roof? And the "rot" you mentioned- will this rust out the steel beams on the building? In my lifetime? They're painted of course...

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JoeK

02-11-2006 16:07:05




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to Ron in Nebr, 02-08-2006 21:35:08  
"Insulation"is primarily provided,not by the insulating material,but by the amount of air trapped within it.Moisture tends to condense at the "dew point"within the insulation where the warm moist air meets the cooler airsettling thru the material.This is why you want airflow over the insulation,to carry any moisture out before it becomes a problem or"pools up" in the media and compacts it,or drips back down through the ceiling.The use/contents of the building make a huge difference.For instance livestock,drying hay etc give off vast amounts of water vapor,where storage of dry goods,machinery result in little vapor.A bulding with a vented heating system(chimney/pipe etc)or electric heat will contain far less vapor than one using unvented space heaters.A "tight" building with floor,tight doors etc will also reduce moisture as damp air is not continually seeping in.The plastic covered insulation you mentioned uses the plastic as a vapor barrier,keeping it from penetrating into the insulation media and allowing it to evaporate back into the room air.The "tin" ceiling you have,unless caulked at each joint and fastener is not a vapor barrier although sealing what you have up,would be less work than tearing it all out.The whole princpal is to keep any water vapor from entering the insulation and the venting is to carry off any moisture that does get thru.As to time frame on damage...impossible to determine..depends on many factors..amount of vapor generated,amount leaking into insulation,temperature variations in weather,ventilation of area both above and below insulation etc,etc. The "baffles" are very lightweight foam generally,could probably be put up with construction adhesive if need be.
Didn't mean to terrorize you on this matter,just that theres potential for some real problems to develop with factors as they are that needed addressing.

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Ron in Nebr

02-12-2006 20:41:19




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 Re: Blow-In Fiberglass Insulation in reply to JoeK, 02-11-2006 16:07:05  
Thanks Joe, that was very informative.

This building will be used as mainly an automotive-type workshop- no livestock or drying hay, etc. Although it will get used in the winter some, the majority of the work being done in it will be during the summer- so the insulation will be used to help cool as well.

Heat is an overhead radiant tube-type heater, vented to the outside of the building.

I will take your advice and try to get the entire ceiling sealed up as best I can.

thanks again!

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